[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In a message dated 12/18/2004 1:43:27 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:First of all I didn't look for this fight,
Since the cities trickery prevented me speaking to you this summer, I will state my case here, and copy you directly since you don't have time to participate in this list all the time.
Always looking for ways to get into a fight, I will way in to answer some of these. Since it is these kind of hostile comments that keep elected officials from participating here...
I didn't attack anyone with a deafly weapon,
I didn't attacked anyone with chemical weapons,
I didn't prevent any laws from being enforced, even when I delibritly broke some (lawn mowing)
I didn't assist in the attack with a deafly weapons,
I didn't assist in the attack of chemical weapons,
I didn't ignore my responsibility to enforce state rules and regulations,
I am the victim who was attacked,
I am defending my self and my neighborhood,
and I never want to see this stupidity ever repeated, ever again,
and as hard is this subject is for are politicians,
I believe this issue must be addressed.
and you want me to give up, and just walk away, pretend nothing happened, why?
If you have a more constructive approach lets here it. So far there is no dialog the city is ignoring the issue, hoping it will fade away, and the only people defending anyone is you. Why?
Industrial property is not fit for human beings to live in, I would have should have been displaced, or at the very least told to wear ear protection, and to think that it is an upgrade is silly (can't spell rediculis). please show me legal case law, by reference to back this up, if you give me a case I'll go to the law library and look it up, before I respond on this point again. If I wanted it changed to light industrial yes this may have been an upgrade, but to have it forced on me, and me still allowed to live here no way, no how.
P.I.M.P. (Parliamentary Inquiry Madam President) If the city forcibly rezoned my property from residential to light industrial using eminent domain the city would have had to pay me compensation correct?
No, that is wrong. If the city actually rezoned your property from residential to industrial using eminent domain that would be considered an "up zoning" not a down zoning and they wouldn't owe you anything.
First of all the city was the defendant in that case, and was loosing badly. If the city didn't take the settlement there would be no 35E.P.I.M.P. How is not requiring GSE to complies with city, county, state noise ordinances in all the out of court settlements passed by ambush agenda items not a noise variance.
Any court settlements are not "variances" by definition. Like the speed limit on 35E the are an agreement reached by the parties of the law suit and would not require any additional coucnil action.
Second the people were represented in that case, read the who vs who in the title and its obvious.
In this case it was the City of St. Paul vs GSE, not Arno vs St. Paul. The city of St. Paul was the prosecutor, and was winning hands down, but the city decided to settle out of court, with no public input, knowing that the noise was going to continue for years. Knowing the public was going to be hurt, or at least a very good chance that it would happen.
Very different cases, very different responsibilities.
The prosecutor has the job to stop habitual criminals, and get them off the street. not just giving them a fine, so they can burglar, rape, pillage again, and again, and again.
a) the city knew the law had been violated
b) the city knew that the law was going to be violated into the future.
c) the city knew that the noise levels exceeded OSHA safety standards for nearby residents and did nothing.
(and by the way OSHA has no continuous noise standard the longest they go for is 72 hours.)
( and then your suppose to get quiet time which they don't define what that is or how quiet that is)
d) they could have closed the plant down, or at least tried to.
so in conclusion, the city, the prosecutor for the people sold out, with out consulting their clients, and the city council agreed.
Have to read some more on this one, any pointers to relevant links would be helpful.P.I.M.P. Why are passing these ambush agenda items not a violation of my neighborhoods civil rights to due process under city state noise variance laws that require a) public notice, and b) a public hearing.
Items that are taken up "under suspension of the agenda" are items that do not require any additional public notices, nor are they public hearings. The council can not suspend the agenda to have a public hearing without notice. Most discussions of the council are not public hearings, and just because the council choses to hear from some people does not make it a public hearing.
My definition of ambush agenda Item, is an Item that was not on the published agenda, nor was it on any previous agenda, Is inserted on to the agenda and voted on without any public knowledge before hand. I don't think were talking about the same thing.
LOL see previous argument unfit for human habitation, eviction, serious upgrades to house to 29 dba noise reduction, no playgrounds in yard, etc..P.I.M.P. How is not requiring GSE to comply, not rezoning my property? Do you think that somehow the noise they make stops on the zoning boundary?
Because it isn't. Had the City rezoned your property (up graded it to industrial) you would have seen the increase in your tax statement.
I am is happy as anyone to see GSE close and I hope that we will see a residential reuse of the property, but hostile attacks on elected officials who have generally been supportive of our plight and whose assistance we are going to need to gain control of the site isn't going to help much.I am happy to see it close more than you were ever know and comprehend, for a taste try to imagine waking up in the middle of the night choking on your own vomit, crawling across the floor to the phone to dial 911, and as your crawling toward the phone trying to keep your head down so the fluid can drain, and by the the time you make that 20 ft. crawl which seamed to last a life time, you can breathe, but you lungs still burn. If you want a MN duty officer report number let me know I'll look it up for you. And I have more stories, but this debate is not about my suffering, its about the laws that were broken, and the people who refused to enforce them in essence accessories to the crime, and what has been done to prevent this from reoccurring in the future. all of these other little arguments are in support of this.
But it could all start right back up with a new owner and the cities position will be what more of the same?
What has anyone, any where, at any time in the city done to prevent this from happening again, in April, in two years, three years ...
You know I really enjoy this list and like to see elected officials weigh in on this kind of debate but we are not going to see them on the list when the response to their commenting here are ignorant, hostile attacks.I also enjoy this list, and I see lists, forums like this backed by secure links to places like factcheck.com replacing other forms of news media, or as the case may be now news opinion channels. after watching now with moyer, and the fcc open debates its obvious we the people can't trust other forms of media to do what we use to expect from them, but this is going way off topic. even if I feel like the smallest minority broadcaster right now. But some type of fact checked debating system is needed to fill the void, for serious debates like this one, and others that have been present on this list, that died because of lack of conviction, but more probably from lack of accountability, and willingness from our public officials to participate in any kind of meaningful way.
I have been looking to debate this in the open,
a) because I can't believe it happened.
b) I never want it to happen again, not here in St. Paul, not any where.
and regardless if I am totally wrong here, expecting my elected officials to do some thing, any thing to prevent this from happing in the future, is no different then saying I want my child to have a safe playground, or a good school. If the politicians find the facts distasteful, undefendable, hostile they should have done something sooner, or not volunteered for the job in the first place, or they can resign and let some one be appointed to take their place. Do you think Bill Clinton enjoyed being impeached, But you would argue, that he had absolutely no responsibly in what happened to him, regardless if the impeachment was right, wrong, over the top, he had absolutely no part in what happened to him. I think not.
These politicians were at the scene of the crime, and are now driving the get away car, even if the dumped GSE on the side of the road to be caught, now we should let them get away, with out doing any thing at all. I think not.
So 5 out of 7 city council members have been here since the beginning, what have they learned, what have they put into place to prevent this from happening again? are these silly questions? is it silly to demand answers to these questions? Instead all I get is silence, and trickery to keep me from making the same claims in the council cambers. I have no other outlet than here right now.
And to think it is ok to do nothing, because the facts are bad, hostile, undesirable, or you don't like the way they are being presented, portrayed is a foolish argument, and insures that this will happen again, and again, and again.
this type of debate gets unmanageable after a while, and would like to split up the individual items, while keeping the main debate on this thread, but two post a day will prevent this from happening. Will see what your response is, to the rebuttal, and who knows maybe there can be start to a constructive dialog, with real politicians, that can pass real rules, regulations. But you haven't even dented the main topic here yet chuck, and I'm sure will both learn more along the way. and in the end I hope we both but it to good use.Just My Opinion Not Those Of My Employers Past Present Or Future
Chuck Repke
West Seventh Resident
East Side Worker
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Arno A. Karner aka (Behind the Muffs)
on the lighter side to the talking heads on alminac we don't need to elect repulican mayors in St. Paul, they all turn republican, or at least endorse republican canadates, think it has some thing to do with the water.
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