Ok, I like this response, overall. Feeling better now. I can work with this.
Progress.
People do things that are sometimes not ideal, and conflicts occur. It
happens. To respond to some of your points:
> I never claimed we accomplished anything in the area libreboot works on.
> What on earth makes you think I was suggesting that?
You weren't suggesting that. I merely pointed out that you criticize a
project for which you do not contribute to.
> Our approach was completely different. We *LOOKED* into that approached
back in 2009 and concluded it wasn't the right direction to take it.
I do not object to this, in fact. You made your decision, as anyone else
would. I took the opposite approach, choosing to work with the coreboot
project and making the best out of it. I can say that we've had some pretty
decent successes (and failures, too) within the libreboot project.
My general attitude is that we should just keep trying, doing whatever we
can, even if it's not perfect. From my own perspective, the message is more
important than the work itself. In libreboot, we have the message of not
compromising, and we work hard to free as much hardware as possible. We make
it our stated goal to bring about a world with entirely free software; free
boot firmware is fundamental in that. Libreboot is being reviewed for entry
as a component of the GNU system, and it's nearly there. I've had to stall it
for a while, but it will be done. Why? Again, it's about the message.
You're actually right, to a point: the x86 hardware that we focussed on
(thinkpads) were and are a dead-end. I've never claimed that they are
long-term. I sell these systems on Minifree. The money that I make is used to
fund future work. I'm currently paying for development work (upstreaming) on
a new server board, for instance. A public release will be made, sooner or
later.
I look at things differently. We don't wait to create a perfect situation;
what we're doing is "putting our foot in the door", so to speak. It actually
does work. The idea is, that by not giving up, and continuing to work on the
project (even if it seems hopeless), we inspire others to get involved and to
do the same thing.
It may be that we inspire people to directly to contribute to libreboot. They
may instead contribute to coreboot, and we re-use that in coreboot. They may
even contribute to projects unrelated to coreboot (such as u-boot), while
still working towards free hardware solutions. The result is the same. We're
setting a good example, and not giving up on the work. We keep pressing
forward, stubbornly (stubbornness is the most important part. RMS was
stubborn when he founded the GNU project, and he never stopped. At the time,
it seemed hopeless and everyone said that it would fail; similar to what
you're currently saying with regards to the message that you put out about
the libreboot project).
Principles, stubbornness, and above all, not compromising. The actual
technical work is less important, as is the approach, but we also try to be
as efficient as possible, and we think about ways in which to push the
project forward. We do have long-term plans for the project.
What you're saying is that the libreboot project could die at one point, and
stop running. You're missing something here, and it's why you don't get it.
It's irrelevant! There may come a point when we have to buckle down for a
while, and re-think. But even at that point, we won't stop. Libreboot could
stop for a year, and then pick up again.
This may occur. I'm doing everything that I can to prevent that from
occurring, but it's a possibility. So be it.
In the words of Richard Stallman: surrender is futile.
> It's a non-trivial task to port coreboot. The better approach was to build
up the financial resources by working on *other* smaller projects.
> Which is exactly what we did. More recently we did start working on a
laptop that would be better from a freedom angle. However it's still a work
in progress.
I'm a big fan of the work that you do do. I'm not against any of it
(libreCMC, for instance, is an amazing project. I have a libreCMC router
myself, believe it or not)
> We do provide *real* product that is more free than the systems you sell.
They just aren't laptops. Yet.
I'm not disputing that. If you do actually put out laptops (or other general
purpose computers) that are libre, I'll tell people about it. I told a lot of
people about Novena, and backed that project, because I thought it was
amazing what they were doing.
> Let me get this straight. So your not OK with a non-free BIOS but you are
still OK with non-free firmware elsewhere on the system?
I'm not OK with non-free software of any kind. I also document those other
components, in the libreboot FAQ:
http://libreboot.org/faq/#otherfirmware
> How is this not hypocritical? You didn't even bother to remove the
winmodems from the systems and there are still proprietary pieces in the hard
disk controllers and elsewhere.
It's not hypocritical, because I don't criticize others for not doing
anything about it. I'm also honest about it when asked. I even criticize the
librebooted ThinkPads that I sell, on my own website, based on this very
issue! See http://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/c201.html#ec and
http://libreboot.org/docs/hcl/c201.html#microcode
Regarding winmodems: only some X200 laptops even have this. Many don't. Most
people don't even use dialup modems, or even know what it is. The FSF were
willing to ignore it, for this reason. Personally, I think it's a non-issue.
The vast majority of people use WiFi or ethernet.
I talked to you about this at libreplanet, saying that dialup is irrelevant
and not worth thinking about. You disagreed, saying that some people still
use it. Keyword: some. The overall point is that we're providing a system
that does respect the user's freedom (free BIOS replacement, free OS, free
drivers, etc). Context is everything.
> There are degrees of what is possible and what we will all accept. You
started later and your line is slightly different, but it's still a line.
Indeed, I came quite late to the scene (during 2013). I was previously
thinking about the BIOS issue, but didn't see much opportunity. Then I
started working on coreboot anyway (and founded the libreboot project),
learning what I could. I've grown my skills a lot, in the last 2 years.
> We started earlier the line then was just a system that worked with
Trisquel- our goal to ship 100% free systems would take longer
> but it would be a reliable road with a longer term chance of success.
There were also efforts back before ThinkPenguin even started. The Lemote
Yeeloong was an example (the actual hardware run was small, and they later
compromised by adding hardware that required blobs). The OLPC was also
another example (which failed for similar reasons, and required blobs for
WiFi afaik).
> I understand that and I'm sorry that you took my criticisms as an attack on
you and libreboot. They were not.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I love criticism. I thrive on criticism. I used to
get into arguments with the coreboot project all the time, when the libreboot
project first started. I still do, with one or two of them, but I've learned
how to handle them over the years.
(and those arguments were way more intense than the one we've been having in
this forum thread)
> I also have worked very hard for a lot longer on these same issues. I also
started out with zero budget.
> I worked two full time jobs outside of the work I did on ThinkPenguin to
get it off the ground. It took 3 years.
This is a common ground that we share, so that we understand each other. I
like that.
> I did it though. I don't know how much time or how many jobs you have
outside of mini free- but I do know how
> hard I worked and how hard I still work to solve these problems. And at the
end of the day I'm not even doing
> the stuff that I'd like to do.
More common ground. There are a lot of things that I'd like to do (in
libreboot), which we're years away from at the moment.
> Which is work on the core technical side of solving these problems. I
decided
> long ago that it was a business/financial issue that was more of a problem
to solve than a technical one.
We think alike, in this regard.
We
> have lots of technical people who can work on projects like libreboot- but
we don't have people raising the
> funds to cover the costs of those who are doing it. Which was a big
priority for me.
Ditto.
But also the message, the principles, the stubbornness. I also think we share
common ground here, too. You do seem to be extremely dedicated.
Look, I'm starting to like you again. I get over grudges pretty quickly,
especially when talking about it. Sometimes that means conflict. This...
heated... exchange between us has demonstrated to me that we actually do
think alike in many ways, and there are areas for common ground.
I met you and Bob at libreplanet this year, and we also spoke with each other
a few times. We weren't exacly "friends", but we were civil with each other
at least. I observed you and Bob interacting with others, when we were at the
FSF office, and you do seem like good people. I had the same impression
throughout that weekend, whenever I walked past you and heard/saw you talking
to people in the MIT building during both days of the conference.
I'm a very rational person, in general. I don't think that you're bad people
(and never have). The problems I had with you were personal, but I still
thought that you were good people otherwise. I even tried to be friendly with
Bob (libreCMC maintainer).
You do actually do a lot of good things. LibreCMC, wifi firmware (working
with manufacturers to get src) and others. The fact that you're here and have
stuck around for so long shows that you do care, and I never disputed this in
fact. You've also hinted at work to get hardware manufactured with u-boot,
fully freedom respecting. I think this is a good thing. I'd also be willing
to incorporate that into libreboot, and promote it, believe it or not.
Regardless of what I might think (or rather, have thought) about you, my goal
is to get free hardware into the hands of more people. That could be me
providing it, or someone else. The end result is the same: my goal is being
met, and that makes me happy.
You also donate quite a lot to the Trisquel project, which is amazing. I
didn't do it for a long time, because I actually couldn't afford it. I was
running on *very* strict resources for a long time, when getting libreboot
and Gluglug (now Minifree) off the ground, but I'm now in a position to do
so. I've increased my donations to the FSF, and started donating to other
(non-software, non-computing related) causes that I support in principle.
Let's agree to drop this, for real, and just work on our projects and push
things forward in our own way. Who knows, we could end up working with each
other in the future, if the terms are right, and it's beneficial to both of
us and (more importantly) to the movement. We've both wasted a lot of time in
the last few days (yes, this dispute has been going on for several days ;)
Seriously, we're both stupid as hell.
