Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
michael douglas wrote:
DAVEH: Joseph Smith was the first to mention it While Canonized Scripture alludes to it, the comments by JS were not Canonized.DAVEH: As far as I know, it is all a matter of speculation. I don't recall seeing any official comments. The assumption that God continues to reveal his secrets to his servants the prophets implies that there are most likely secrets to be revealed at any given time, assuming the Lord has not yet revealed all knowledge. Michael......My guess would be that the answer you are looking for may not be revealed until 'the end', if at all. Until then, it is a matter of speculation, IMO.michael douglas wrote:> >>Michael D: Dave H, I am interested in finding out how did God become a man,DAVEH: I don't have a definitive answer, Michael.
DAVEH: Assuming you are referring to God the Father: As man is, God once was is a popular LDS belief.-Michael D: OK, But the critical question then would be how did Father become a man (understanding your position that he was such before becoming God). And can you give us LDS sources for this?
Michael D: Dave H., This is very interesting and equally disturbing to me. If there are no sources of scripture to support this 'speculation' then where does this whole theory about God first being a man then becoming God come from?
DAVEH: I was not building my faith on it......I was merely answering your question. I don't know that any LDS folks build there faith on it either. Our faith is in Jesus. Well, this is one basis for LDS assertion that man would become god in his ultimate destiny, isn't it?How can one build their faith in a supposed eternal destiny on "assumption", "most likely", and "my guess" .DAVEH: Since you are below quoting PS, let me quote PS 82:6.......It seems like a whole lot is based upon this, down to man's supposed destiny of becoming a god"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
........Michael, does that not suggest that "man's supposed destiny" is "of becoming a god"?
Michael D: No, Dave H. This and similar references would only support an argument that man is already a 'god' and his life on earth then would be pursuing an altogether different destiny, not becoming something that he already is... Can you see that?.
DAVEH: Sure......Jesus was 'God' prior to becoming a man, and before he became exalted. Hansen, that verse does not refer to Jesus. Can you read it again..That's why I reiterate: So, can the doctrine of God being once a man then being exalted ever be legit???... How, would you say then this 'speculation' squares off with Ps 90:2 - '...even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.' Strong's indicates (5769) that 'everlasting' means always or eternity. So, can the doctrine of God being once a man then being exalted ever be legit???DAVEH: You must have quoted the reference wrong......or, I'm reading it wrong! Sorry, it's Numbers 23:19.Apart from the above, here is Deuteronomy 23:19DAVEH: Take that comment as a whole and what does it imply, Michael? That God AS A MAN will not lie, which is the opposite of a typical MAN WHO DOES LIE. No, Dave H., It says He is not a man and therefore can't lie... He is showing the totally infallible nature of God.- 'God is not a man, that He should lie;DAVEH: Ain't that an interesting comment. Jesus is the son of "man". Do you literally believe that, Michael? Evidently not. Of course I do. David Miller explained that a couple weeks ago as I recall.neither the son of man that he should repent...'DAVEH: No I didn't, Michael. I think you misunderstood me. Jesus was God BEFORE he was exalted. I have repeatedly said that I believe Jesus is the God of the OT, and he wasn't exalted until NT times. The question then is how did HE become God? You said above that the Father became God just as His only begotten Son did by being exalted. '...But if you want me to speculate, I would say our Heavenly Father became exalted in the same way his Only Begotten Son became exalted.' This of course, goes against your statement that you believe Jesus was God before being exalted.Now we know that Jesus is a man who has been exalted. (You alluded above that this made him God)DAVEH: You are leaving off the part of the comment that defines the nature of God. "He is not a man,"......"that He should lie,". I did that intentionally, because I did not want to repeat the entire thing.There is a problem with applying that to the Father, because as Deut. 23 shows, He said He is not a man,.........Well, I don't think anybody would disagree with me on this, God doesn't lie. But ignoring the first half of the phrase makes it sound like "He should lie"!!! Likewise, ignoring the second half makes it sound like God is "not a man". But that is not what the verse implies.....quite the opposite! In reality, God (The Father) is a(n exalted) man, that cannot lie. Have I explained it adequately, Michael? Answered above..
DAVEH: I think the Lord was differentiating himself from 'normal' men, who don't have the strength of God. OK, but I surely differ...which denies any claim to Him having been a man and exalted to His God status. Cf. Hosea 11:9.DAVEH: I did. Furthermore, there are several Biblical comments that infer his Father is an exalted man......Can you address the above for me...".......he that hath seen me hath seen the Father;......" Jn 14:9 Where in this verse does it say that The Father is an exalted man?
.......and......
"Who being the brightness of his glory, and the EXPRESS IMAGE OF HIS PERSON, and ......." Heb 1:3
The only thing that these verses can suggest in this regard is that God is a man, and that a non-exalted one, for these verses refer to Jesus in His pre/non-exalted state. He was only exalted after He ascended on high. Therefore if we are to make this kind of association this LDS theory breaks completely down... Can you see that?
"Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, BEING IN THE FORM OF GOD, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:" Phi 2:6-7
You have to finish the passage... It says He took upon himself the form of a servant, and being found in fashion as a man... So it tells us that the God-state is totally different from the man-state, it is something He had acquired on becoming human.
Finally, John 1 said that '...the Word became/was made flesh and dwelt amongst us...' This tells us that God is not flesh. Notice, it does not say ...the Word, which was flesh, came and dwelt among us... or anything of the sort.
.......and, there are numerous Bible passages that personify God.
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