David Miller wrote: The Scriptures teach that baptism saves us. ... What we need to do is understand what the Bible means by this teaching, not deny that the Bible teaches it.
Judy wrote: The Bible does not teach this. If this is a clear doctrine of scripture then you should be able to prove it by two or more witnesses David, are you able to do that? dm: Of course. <snipped scriptures for brevity> Acts 2:38-41 KJV Acts 8:12 KJV Acts 22:16 KJV Romans 6:3-6 KJV Galatians 3:26-27 KJV 1 Peter 3:21 KJV jt: None of the above teach salvation/redemption by baptism other than what you read into 1 Peter 3:21 David. Yes Peter and the other apostles commanded ppl to be baptized AFTER God by His Spirit had performed a work of grace in the heart. Judy wrote: What I am saying is that baptism represents our putting off the old man of sin, it is a picture of our identification with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, but faith must be there first or it is only dead ritual/religious works. dm: Amen. Faith must be there. That has been my point. jt: I must have misunderstood then David, I have been reading that we are "SAVED by baptism" and had thought this was your point. dm: When you teach that baptism is only a symbolic ritual of an inward experience that has already taken place, you remove faith from the act of baptism. jt: Calling water baptism symbolic and figurative does not remove anything. After all we do not undergo a literal death, burial, and resurrection do we? So baptism is symbolic. dm: Those who are taught this way do not apply faith in Jesus Christ through the act of baptism. jt: I have been baptised and re-baptised and both times I was asked for a testimony of faith - I don't understand your point here David. Judy wrote: I understand that 8 ppl were saved from God's wrath by water, that is Noah and his family... and we are saved from God's wrath by our identification with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. But faith is a prerequisite for both. Noah is included in Hebrews 11 with the heroes of faith isn't he? dm: Yes. Faith is required in baptism or it is not baptism. That's why I object to teaching that baptism is only a symbolic gesture of something that has already happened. jt: But this is exactly what water baptism is David. It does not in and of itself put away the filth of the flesh, it is a figure only We do it in obedience - to fulfill all righteousness. David Miller wrote: The Scriptures teach that baptism saves us (1 Peter 3:21). Judy wrote: The scriptures say this in one place but baptism independent or aside from faith will not save us. dm: Yes. Now we are making progress. You agree that the Scriptures say this. We agree together that aside from faith, baptism will not save us. jt: Good! Does this mean I don't have to straighten out Peter? Judy wrote: I mention Philip because both he and Peter made sure there was something going on in the heart having to do with faith before they baptized these people. dm: Yes, amen. Faith must be there. Judy wrote: Baptism should be the outcome of the 'obedience of faith' dm: Amen. We agree. jt: Sure am glad about that .. just one more little object lesson that I found this morning. Simon the sorceror was baptized (see Acts 8:13) but obviously he was not saved because when he wanted to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit Peter told him in no uncertain terms that his heart wasn't right with God. Grace and Peace, Judy Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
