David Miller wrote: >> I'm not aware of any Bible verse that says baptism >> is a sign confirming the spiritual work of grace >> that has already taken place in the person's heart.
Judy wrote: > Possibly I should have pointed out that we do not > get born again by water baptism but by the power of > the Holy Spirit working in conjunction with God's Word. Of course, we agree on this. The Scriptures teach that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved. I might point to how a person who calls out to the Lord was saved by his profession of faith, but that does not mean that I negate the other elements involved here, such as the power of the Holy Spirit working in conjunction with God's Word. In the same way, the way the Scriptures speak about baptism saving us does not negate the other elements involved. Judy wrote: > I don't know if you have ever debated Roman Catholics > - I have and by it learned how important this distinction > is. The RCC teaches ppl they are saved by the ritual of > baptism and they receive the Holy Spirit at their first > communion. Neither is so. I agree. The way that they speak of baptism saving us is not the same as the way that Peter speaks about it saving us. Same words, but different implications. Judy wrote: > it is after the eunuch's confession of Christ > that they went into the water. Claiming that > baptism saves puts the cart before the horse. Well, you had better correct Peter and the Bible then, because that's what it says. Clearly when we say baptism saves, we are saying that baptism done in faith saves, otherwise, we might as well say that taking a bath saves. Nevertheless, I agree with you that the way that most Protestants teach baptism is such that nobody ever gets saved by Baptism in the way that the Bible talks about it. Most Protestants take faith out of baptism so that the person doing it really just takes a bath. David Miller wrote: > The passage in Peter speaks about the answer of a good > conscience toward God taking place in water baptism. Judy wrote: > Scripture teaches that it is the blood of Jesus that > cleanses the conscience from dead works so that we > may serve the living God Hebrews 9:14. Right, so put them together and we come to understand that the blood of Christ is appropriated by exercising faith in baptism. David Miller wrote: > The Scriptures teach that baptism saves us. ... What we > need to do is understand what the Bible means by this > teaching, not deny that the Bible teaches it. Judy wrote: > The Bible does not teach this. If this is a clear > doctrine of scripture then you should be able to prove > it by two or more witnesses David, are you able to do > that? Of course. Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and BE BAPTIZED EVERY ONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. (Acts 2:38-41 KJV) But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. (Acts 8:12 KJV) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and BE BAPTIZED, AND WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord. (Acts 22:16 KJV) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Romans 6:3-6 KJV) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. FOR AS MANY OF YOU AS HAVE BEEN BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST HAVE PUT ON CHRIST. (Galatians 3:26-27 KJV) The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: (1 Peter 3:21 KJV) Judy wrote: > What I am saying is that baptism represents our putting > off the old man of sin, it is a picture of our identification > with the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, but faith > must be there first or it is only dead ritual/religious works. Amen. Faith must be there. That has been my point. When you teach that baptism is only a symbolic ritual of an inward experience that has already taken place, you remove faith from the act of baptism. Those who are taught this way do not apply faith in Jesus Christ through the act of baptism. Judy wrote: > I understand that 8 ppl were saved from God's wrath by > water, that is Noah and his family... and we are saved from > God's wrath by our identification with the death, burial and > resurrection of Christ. But faith is a prerequisite for both. > Noah is included in Hebrews 11 with the heroes of faith isn't > he? Yes. Faith is required in baptism or it is not baptism. That's why I object to teaching that baptism is only a symbolic gesture of something that has already happened. When you teach it this way, then baptism becomes a religious dead work. Without faith, baptism is nothing. David Miller wrote: >> The Scriptures teach that baptism saves us >> (1 Peter 3:21). Judy wrote: > The scriptures say this in one place but baptism > independent or aside from faith will not save us. Yes. Now we are making progress. You agree that the Scriptures say this. We agree together that aside from faith, baptism will not save us. Judy wrote: > I mention Philip because both he and Peter made sure > there was something going on in the heart having to > do with faith before they baptized these people. Yes, amen. Faith must be there. Judy wrote: > Baptism should be the outcome of the 'obedience of faith' Amen. We agree. Peace be with you. David Miller, Beverly Hills, Florida. ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. 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