Judy wrote: <snipped scriptures for brevity> Acts 2:38-41 KJV Acts 8:12 KJV Acts 22:16 KJV Romans 6:3-6 KJV Galatians 3:26-27 KJV 1 Peter 3:21 KJV
jt: None of the above teach salvation/redemption by baptism other than what you read into 1 Peter 3:21 David. dm: I think you read your own denial of what Peter says into these same passages. jt: So basically you still maintain that baptism in and of itself saves? It either does or it doesn't... Yes Peter and the other apostles commanded ppl to be baptized AFTER God by His Spirit had performed a work of grace in the heart. dm: I agree that baptism comes AFTER God by his Spirit has performed a work of grace in the hearts of those who hear the Word. jt: So baptism by itself does not save? dm: But in many of these passages, the forgiveness of sins is associated with a person doing the act of baptism. jt: How? The water of baptism does not wash a soul clean from sin. dm: For example, "arise, and BE BAPTIZED AND WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord" (Acts 22:16). jt: The above is the Lord himself speaking to the apostle Paul after his experience with the blindness. I would like to note here that Paul's message all through his ministry was the message of the "cross" which is the "death, burial, and resurrection" of the Lord Jesus Christ and this is what baptism symbolizes. It is the power emanating from the resurrection that changes a person; even here in Vs.8 Saul acknowledges the Lordship of Jesus when he cries "Who art thou Lord?" dm: Another example, "be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38). Do you see how the remission of sins is associated with being baptized? jt: I see the remission of sins as being associated with REPENTANCE and the full text above should be "then Peter said unto them "REPENT and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Judy wrote: I must have misunderstood then David, I have been reading that we are "SAVED by baptism" in what you wrote and had thought this was your point. dm: I think you have misunderstood. My point was that baptism saves, not that we are saved by baptism. There are some subtle distinctions here. Saying we are saved by baptism puts all the work on the act of baptism. It makes baptism something magical. I do not believe that. On the other hand, Peter's teaching that baptism saves simply shows forth that baptism is not some dead ritual done for purely symbolic reasons. jt: It is done for reasons of obedience and symbolism but this does not make it dead. dm: Baptism might have a lot of symbolism attached to it, but when it is entered into with faith, the person being baptized experiences the remission of sins and the answer of a good conscience toward God. In this way, he is saved from the world system and from the sins of the flesh. jt: Sigh! I know I'll never convince you David - but Baptism in itself does not do all that. A person who has repented should already have a good conscience toward God and if by faith they believe the old man to be crucified with Christ and are willing to reckon him dead then an ongoing work of sanctification can begin in that person's life but it does not take place during baptism. Judy wrote: Calling water baptism symbolic and figurative does not remove anything. After all we do not undergo a literal death, burial, and resurrection do we? So baptism is symbolic. dm:Teaching the baptism does not save is unbiblical (per 1 Peter 3:21), and teaching that baptism is ONLY symbolic and an OUTWARD expression of a inward work that has already taken place removes baptism from the Biblical role that Jesus meant for it to have. People who believe this way often put off baptism for years and years after believing in Christ. Then when they enter baptism, there is no saving faith involved with it. This is not the model that Jesus had in mind when he instituted baptism. jt: The model Jesus presented when he introduced baptism and was baptised himself in the River Jordan was not to wash and cleanse from sin because he had none, it was to fulfill all righteousness. For us the washing and cleansing comes through the cross and we are baptized in obedience to Jesus command also to fulfill all righteousness as he did. Judy wrote: just one more little object lesson that I found this morning. Simon the sorceror was baptized (see Acts 8:13) but obviously he was not saved because when he wanted to buy the gift of the Holy Spirit Peter told him in no uncertain terms that his heart was not right with God. dm: Right. Baptism is not magical and not everyone who is baptized experiences salvation. Faith in Christ is the proper focus, and baptism is a powerful way in which a new convert can express saving faith in Jesus Christ. jt: So you agree then - that baptism will not save us? Grace and Peace, Judy ---------- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
