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You are probably right, Lance. Judy, I should not
have cast dispersions upon your character. You may very well be doing the best
you are able with what you have been given. No one should ask for more than
that.
My apologies,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 9:05
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Being Led or
Being Driven
Bt says of Jt 'the lengths you will travel to
save face'. IMO nothing of the sort is going on here. IMO whenever Jt speaks
she does so from her heart, mind and, as she sees it, under the tutelage of
the Holy Spirit. IMO this is why, Bill, MOST of your interaction with Jt,
though well intended and, IMO, superb in it's content, is 'time well wasted'
(comedy channel promo)
I'm sorry about the run-on sentences but I
believe you catch my drift. If you don't then, ask for
clarification.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: March 06, 2005 10:47
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Being Led or
Being Driven
Judy charges > So
you have determined to change Matthew and Luke so that they line up
with your interpretation of Ekballo in Mark Bill?
It's not my interpretation which ought to
concern you, Judy. In your case, it is yours; in fact, the following is a
great case in point:
Judy writes > What
about these (same word) - is the meaning here "forced and compelled"
as well? - note they are sent into not cast out
of...
Matt 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest
that he will send forth laborers
into his harvest.
Matt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break and
smoking flax shall he not quench till he send
forth judgment..
Luke 10:2b Pray ye therefore the Lord of the
harvest, that he would send forth laborers
into his harvest.
My, O my, the lengths you will travel to save face! Yup, they were sent
forth into something else, no doubt about it -- and with the same word
certain sailors, fearing shipwreck, "cast
out the wheat into the
sea." And so I ask you, what does "forth" mean, here, if not OUT -- send
"out" laborers into the harvest, etc. "And Jesus said, Are ye also yet
without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in
at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast
out into the draught?"
(Mat 15.16-17) --
Perhaps as good a place as any to end our conversation,
Bill
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 06, 2005 4:24
AM
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Being Led or
Being Driven
But you are not
Bill? You still want to believe that the Holy Spirit drives even
though there are two witnesses against one
(supposed)? No wonder things become so complicated....
jt
Whatever, Judy. The truth is, I don't look at it in terms of one being "against" the
other -- whether supposedly or not. I told you this
already.
But these words are in
opposition Bill (if you insist that "send forth" means doing
something under the force of compulsion), and this is not God's way nor
is it the way His Holy Spirit operates. When Mary was chosen
for the incarnation this was not forced upon her without her consent;
(see Luke 1:38) the angel waited for her to accept.
Luke 4:1 says "And Jesus
being full of the Holy Ghost returned from Jordan, and was led by the
Spirit into the wilderness." Would you consider "sent forth under the
Spirit's annointing?"
What I am doing is looking at the
words themselves and determining their range of usage, then
translating them in a way which preserves that usage without
pitting them against each other. Whether
it is casting demons out of sinners, or throwing heirs out of
vineyards, the thrust of ekballo places its
activity and power in a source other than its subject. The "send out" of this word is therefore also in the power of
another. In the case of this verse, it is in
the power of the Holy Spirit; hence, Jesus
was "compelled" by the Spirit to enter the wilderness.
What about these (same word) - is the meaning
here "forced and compelled" as well? - note they are
sent into not cast out
of...
Matt 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of the
harvest that he will send forth
laborers into his harvest.
Matt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break
and smoking flax shall he not quench till he send
forth judgment..
Luke 10:2b Pray ye therefore the Lord of the
harvest, that he would send forth
laborers into his
harvest.
I wish you were able to see this. Just
because two of the Gospels use a different word, that in it itself does
not negate your responsibility as either a
translator or an interpreter of this word to honor its definition
and treat it accordingly.
jt: I understand Bill (we are
warned not to add or take away from what has been written) so I
treat this very seriously. However, I don't see any wisdom in
forcing Matthew and
Luke to conform to Mark since all three report on the same
incident and were inspired by the same Holy Spirit - and we also
have the Spirit to help us apprehend truth so that we are
not entirely beholden to Greek words.
If harmony is what you seek, you should nonetheless respect the thrust of
the more forceful ekballo
and translate the others in a way that
preserves its thrust, and you should do
this while staying within their common range of usage --
hence, the Spirit "brought" him to the wilderness.
jt: I'm wondering if you have
a basic underlying Calvinistic bent Bill because the root of this
conflict lies in the nature and character of God
who allows us to be tested
but never compels or forces anything on us so that when we are judged it
will be for our own choices, not His.
As believers being led by
God's Spirit is what we are supposed to be about daily and it is
something one must do willingly just like Jesus our Master who
delighted to do the will of the Father. If the Holy Spirit
was going to do any strong arming surely it would have been in the garden of Gethsemane because
He really did have a struggle with that one..
The "mystery" is solved for me, too.
Bill
jt: So you have
determined to change Matthew and Luke so that they line up with
your interpretation of Ekballo in Mark Bill?
judyt
But you are not Bill? You still want to
believe that the Holy Spirit drives even though there are two
witnesses against one (supposed)? No
wonder things become so complicated.... jt
Okay, Judy, it sounds as though you are
convinced. Bill
Are we now on the "same page"
Bill? When was Jesus ever "driven" to do
anything?
judyt
Judy, your problem is not with
me. Yours is to reconcile two very
different words from Scripture: "drive" and "lead" -- get the picture?
Bill I've never had a problem with
scripture and you are the one who
insists that Jesus was literally "driven" to the wilderness
(from one gospel) when two others
use the word led.
As of yet you really haven't done much to "harmonize" the
two; all you have only insisted (contrary to its
definition) that "ekballo" doesn't
really mean force or drive out, expel, exclude, reject, or
compel.
Actually it is three - and the
reason for this is because in my experience so far God's
Word has never been contradictory and I don't believe that this is a first....
I don't understand how you can feel justified in doing this, but
I often have difficulties making sense of the things you say. I
do agree with you that Mark had "a more forceful style" than
Luke -- he demonstrates this throughout his Gospel
-- but I would like to ask you why the
Holy Spirit would inspire him to say that Jesus was
driven (a word with the thrust of being forced
against one's will) into the wilderness, if
in fact he was actually volitionally led there like Luke's
Gospel is translated to state? Please answer this question for
me, as I am very interested.
Both Matthew and Luke use the word
"led" Bill. IMO the problem comes from trying to
interpret scripture solely by the use
of Greek words. Ekballo does not
only mean what you have noted
above, it is also used with the idea of "sending
forth" as in ministry. Look at how this
word is used elsewhere in the
gospels:
Matt 9:38 Pray ye therefore the Lord of
the harvest that he will send
forth laborers into his harvest.
Matt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not
break and smoking flax shall he not quench till he
send forth
judgment..
Luke 10:2b Pray ye therefore the Lord
of the harvest, that he would send
forth laborers into his harvest.
Again, if what you are seeking to do is to harmonize the
two accounts, then the way to do it is to
translate Luke's word "ageto" as brought -- the Spirit
brought him to the wilderness. This word ageto
can also be translated to imply the use of force, such
as lead away, arrest, take into custody (see Mar
13.11). And so, if it is harmony that you seek, then it is Luke's word which needs to be translated in
a way which conveys the forceful tone of Mark's ekballo
-- not the other way around: unless you can explain to me
how one can force a willing
accomplice. Bill
Once again Bill it is
three accounts - two of them say
"led", and one uses the word Ekballo.
To say this means "driven" would be against God's nature and His
Word. A&E were driven from the garden in judgment but God
does not ever drive or force anyone to do His will; if we
will not serve Him willingly, he leaves us to our own devices.
The prophet wrote about Jesus "Lo I come in the volume of the
book it is written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God;
yea, they law is within my heart" (Ps 40:7, Heb
10:7). Being sent forth is something
one is in agreement with and acts
upon willingly (such as ministry teams and being led by the Holy
Spirit). Jesus sent forth the 12 as well as the 70 - There
is no record that he ever drove anyone or forced them to do anything. It is unfortunate that
the translators did not use "sent
forth" rather than
"driveth". The mystery is solved
for me. judyt
This is a good example of the
principle that from the mouths of "two or more
witnesses" let every
word be established. I was
remiss in not doing more homework when we were discussing
this.
Both Luke and Matthew say "Jesus was
led" - only Mark uses the word "driven" in the KJV.
The
NASB translates it as "impelled" and
has a note saying that **this is because of Mark's
more
forceful style.
Are we now on the "same page"
Bill? When was Jesus ever "driven" to do
anything? They
couldn't even throw Him off the brow
of the cliff in their wrath? Noone took His
life and the
Prince of this World had nothing in
Him. judyt
Say Bill,
In my reading this a.m. I note
that Luke 4:1 says "And Jesus being full of the Holy
Ghost returned
from Jordan, and was
LED by the Spirit into the wilderness" (Luke
4:1)
So what do you think?
Which is it that harmonizes with
the rest of scripture "being driven or being
led?"
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