on 8/24/01 4:56 PM, "Flying Cloud" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> There is a thread on the Jcorporate site under Expresso User forum which
>>> discusses our users' thoughts on how they compare; as well as...
>>
>> Please post the URI...
>
> One thing to bear in mind is that this is from earlier this year and
> probably is a little out of date.
> http://www.jcorporate.com/servlet/ControllerActionServlet?controller=com.jco
> rporate.eforum.controller.Browse&next=/components/eforum/jsp/messages.jsp&st
> ate=browseMessages&GroupId=1&ThreadId=142
>
> [As a side note - a search feature will be on site in near future for the
> site content, forums, faq, and helpdesk]
>
> To access eServices you must be registered as a user.
>
> Having heard Jon's complaint about this already - I will explain the reason
> although we will probably "agree to disagree" ...
> 1. Considering the forums and other eServices cost Jcorporate money to write
> and maintain - it is very good user value that the only cost is
> registering - info which is only for internal use. Registering is after all
> common practice. And if registering is too much effort there is always the
> opensource listserv.
It isn't a common practice in an open source community. mysql.org just got
flamed to hell for requiring people to log in in order to download mysql.
As for internal use only, that isn't entirely true. Your argument is based
on you saying about that you need to justify the cost of maintaining these
services by using the registration information for "something".
> 2. Registering enables creating and building a tighter sense of community
> building as well as being able to offer more personalization. Registering
> allows us to send forum thread postings to the user's email address if they
> wish this service. As time goes on it will enable us to provide more
> personalized services.
What does the forums have to do with access to anonymous CVS?
> 3. Registering also enables the user to see Expresso in action. Expresso
> drives virtually everything on site as the foundation technology to the
> forum, faq, helpdesk (task lists, bugs, news, projects), econtent management
> etc etc. It a live, breathing example of Expresso (we have 1.25M hits or so
> onsite); and we are generally the first site to eat our own cooking when a
> new release is being prepared.
Great!
Apache.org receives something like 3+ million connections/day. We don't have
corporate sponsorship other than what is donated. Anything more than static
pages taxes the *shared server* (that is shared by something like 500+
developers) so it is a policy across all of apache.org that static files are
the way to go.
> How about your site - what is Turbine used to drive?
<http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/powered.html>
> Ah...its nice to be remembered :). Michael is very private so suffice it to
> say that academically he was exceptionally outstanding. Better yet you have
> only to look at his work; or talk to Expresso's contributors to confirm it.
I did look at his work. Honestly, I wasn't exactly impressed at the time
with his code. Last time I looked, it was back in June. Maybe his code has
improved since then, I know mine has.
Needless to say, a quick grep through the code reveals that he is the author
of quite a large portion of the code which substantiates my earlier claims.
grep -rh "@author" *
> Interesting perception you have; as I understand it that foobar is what made
> Apache known in the corporate world.
Nope, quality software was what made Apache HTTPd known in the corporate
world. Also, the price point couldn't be beat.
Did you know that up until recently, Apache HTTPd didn't even have a testing
suite?
> We've had a number of awards: both the reader choice awards and the
> Sun/JavaPro awards brought considerably more traffic. On the basis of
> results I view it as indicative of the value to the community, and feedback
> on our work; and certainly better than that indicated by no awards from my
> way of thinking. Feedback, both positive and negative is essential to
> growing as a product and organization.
Yea, we don't really worry about bringing traffic in here. Our advertising
budget is as large as our software cost. $0.00. :-)
What we worry about is producing quality software.
> We don't spend any money on advertising either.
I find that hard to believe, how much does a booth cost at a conference?
> No one using our OSS projects need pay us a dime; and all eServices are
> free. Contributors get even more free. I don't understand your issue with
> money - it's humorous as surely you live so you do use the stuff to pay for
> food, clothes, car etc. ;)
I find that certain pieces of software are not worth charging money for.
They are commodities. For instance, you are attempting to compete with
Turbine. Why would anyone use your software when they can download Turbine
for free and get immediate support here on the list? There is no value add
in the framework. The value add is in the applications built on top of the
framework.
> We had to write/maintain a servlet to perform this count; and while this was
> an investment of time we felt it be part of good management of the project.
> It is often helpful to users to be able to gauge the project's maturity and
> acceptance - especially when corporate personnel need to justify their
> decisions. Heck 90% or more of the people using the community OSS work are
> corporate. It is also useful so that we have a gauge to know how well we
> are doing. It's like taking the temperature on a given afternoon. Over time
> it provides a relative indication.
I stopped caring about numbers like this a long time ago. If you produce
quality tools and can prove that they are quality, people will come and
adopt them. Velocity is a primary example of this.
Number of users is no indication of quality. JSP is a prime example of that.
> On another note, I'd like to add that is very important to Jcorporate and
> our user community to build on shared OSS standards projects such as Log4J,
> JUnit, Bouncycastle, Xerces, Xalan, Struts and others. Struts being the
> latest integration that we just completed.
Great! Although, you certainly read the postings here by people who are
coming *from* the Struts community looking for a better solution than
Struts.
> All things considered with what
> M$ is doing it would be ideal in the interest of promoting Java in the
> marketplace to look at what we are all doing and align so that we build on
> each other's work and strengths rather than recreating wheels. To work
> together as an industry.
I'm personally not interested in competition with M$. They will walk right
over you if you go that route.
> "Our separation from each other is an optical illusion of consciousness.
> (Albert Einstein)"
We offered to work with you in the past and you blew us off.
:-)
-jon
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