VACList-Digest Sunday, February 10, 2002 Issue 208
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Penetrating Epoxy
2. Question about penetrating epoxy
3. Re: Question about penetrating epoxy
4. Re: Penetrating Epoxy
5. Re: Tanks for everything
6. FW: Tanks for everything
7. rust stains on Caravel
8. Re: Question about penetrating epoxy
9. Re: Tanks for everything
10. Another idea on black water tanks
11. Re:
12. Re: Another idea on black water tanks
13. Re: HWH Cover
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message Number: 1
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 19:32:59 -0600
From: Dan Weeks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Penetrating Epoxy
Jim Smith's response pretty well sums it up, But I'd add one more thing:
Instead of fiberglass cloth, some of us do a two-stage repair: After
saturating the wood with penetrating epoxy and letting it cure, we mix up a
paste made of epoxy and structural filler (west system epoxies sell this
stuff. Yes, West is some of the expensive stuff Jim talks about, but I use
it anyway because they have a complete product system including mixing pumps
hardeners of varying speed, various kinds of structural and non-structural
fillers, etc. that make the whole procedure idiot proof and very convenient)
and put it on with a drywall knife, working it well into the holes (and the
inevitable splinter canyons that result from drilling into rot), then
leveling it. And, oh yes, one more one more thing: Make sure the wood is
ABSOLUTELY DRY before you do any of this, or the penetrating epoxy won't
penetrate, and instead will just seal in the remaining moisture and speed up
the rot. Stick a dehum unit in there, and/or heaters, and get that sucker
really dry. And, of course, make sure the leaks that caused the rot in the
first place are sealed. Have fun--I did this, and the resulting floor, even
where you could stick a screwdriver through originally, now feels like rock.
IT's pretty amazing stuff.
Dan Weeks
76 Argosy 26
Des Moines
------------------------------
Message Number: 2
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 21:33:52 -0500
From: Jerry Jarrell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Question about penetrating epoxy
> I'm
> going to use penetrating epoxy. However, I have several questions that I
> didn't see covered in the hundreds of posts on the subjects.
T-Bird, Jim Smith helped me a lots when I tackled the floor rot. His advise is sound
and he should know as he has much experience in the boating industry. Using
penetrating epoxy is much easier than removing and replacing the flooring especially
when it iJerry
WBCCI/VAC
57 Overlander
91 Chev G20 Van puller
------------------------------
Message Number: 3
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 21:18:50 -0700
From: "T. Byrd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about penetrating epoxy
Hi Jim,
This is all good information. Thank you, I always welcome your 2 cents,
or whatever you can spare. :)
I recently purchased the Overlander with the intent of traveling and
living in it full time. It looked to be in really good condition, and in
fact, for the most part, it is. However there are soft spots in the
floor in the usual locations. It seems that it's in good condition
around the perimeter of the floor, but under the fresh water tank, water
heater, and especially under the shower/comode, it's soft and
delaminating. The interior is in excellent condition, and the previous
owner put down new carpet and sheet vinyl, and we'd rather not delve
into a complete restoration at this time. However, someday we may go a
little further.
I've only taken up the flooring in the bathroom, and we plan on taking
it up under the couch and water heater as well. So far, the wood looks
like it's in decent condition, soft, delaminating, but it hasn't turned
into fluff yet, and it's only really soft in a few select spots (around
the shower drain for example). It is certainly rotting around the edge
of the floor in the shower, so badly in fact, that the aluminum interior
panels have corroded away about 1" or so up from the floor. So at least
I can get the epoxy out to the edge. I don't know if I should be pleased
or not about that one. :)
If the penetrating epoxy can't be used for laminating, how would I
re-laminate the layers? I noticed on the Fiberglass Coatings web site
that they sell a laminating epoxy as well. Can, or should, this be used
prior to the penetrating epoxy? This doesn't sound feasible to me, but
I've never used these types of epoxies, or for these purposes.
I'll take your advice and add the layer of fiberglass cloth over the
area. Do you think this would be better than 1/4" plywood? I don't care
about the quality of the surface so much, as I'm putting the aluminum
shower pan and the black tank back over it when finished. I also agree
with you, and feel that over engineering, and over strengthening the
floor would be better than underkill.
I'm also wondering what kind of coverage I can expect from the
penetrating epoxy. I suppose it depends on the condition of the wood,
and how well it's absorbed. I have maybe 15 to 20 square feet to cover,
and I was planning on purchasing the 1:1 Gallon Kit. In your experience,
is this too much?
Again, thank you for your sage advice!
--
Ted Byrd
1958 Overlander
------------------------------
Message Number: 4
Date: Sat, 09 Feb 2002 21:30:52 -0700
From: "T. Byrd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Penetrating Epoxy
Dan Weeks wrote:
> Instead of fiberglass cloth, some of us do a two-stage repair: After
> saturating the wood with penetrating epoxy and letting it cure, we mix up a
> paste made of epoxy and structural filler (west system epoxies sell this
> stuff.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the additional notes. We live in the Arizona desert, and it's
naturally very warm and dry here. We've been blessed with temperatures
in the 70's this month, and no rain or moisture to speak of. The water
system hasn't been used in a very long while, maybe years, so the wood
is quite dry, and probably willing to drink up as much epoxy as I can
get on it. As I said in my prior message, I'm not too concerned with the
resulting finish, as it will be hidden under the couch, bed, and shower
for the most part. I think I will however do this on the one small
section in front of the shower, as the wood isn't as badly damaged, and
it will be getting a new layer of sheet vinyl upon completion.
--
Ted Byrd
1958 Overlander
------------------------------
Message Number: 5
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:23:07 -0600
From: "Raymond Pillar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Tanks for everything
Thanks Krusty err Alex, that's quite a testimonial for JB Weld. I have the
typical cracks around the potty ring and that's all. But you are right in
saying that it's a big job to remove it if it fails again. I am also
uncomfortable with having only a black tank. Very thorough advice.
Decisions - decisions
Ray Pillar
66 Safari
WBCCi 6514
Message Number: 12
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 07:51:18 EST
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tanks for everything
Ray -
Well, I and Harvey both did this last year, and it is quite a job. It seem
to
separate the men from the boys if you do it your self.
At that time we all wondered quite a bit if the material of the black tank
could be mended at all, as it was polyethylene and reported to resist
epoxies, and such. I despaired and ordered a tank that would fit, but was
far
from original, which meant it would fit sort of. Having the old tank out I
experimented with JB weld which was suggested on this list, and bless me, it
worked amazingly well. I had cracks around the toilet flange (most common
failure) as well as around the dump valve, and even a big cut I made myself
as I was removing it with a sawzall.
I filled all of these with JB weld and waited to see what would happen.
Well, it stuck, and stuck good. I set the tank on saw horses and filled it
with water. No leaks after a week. I plumbed together a riser on the vent
stack (6' tall vertical pipe) plugged the toilet flange, and fill the whole
business with water for a static pressure test. Still no leaks after another
week. The new tank still was several weeks away from delivery, so for
giggles
I reinstalled the repaired old tank. And filled it with water "in situ" --no
leaks. Then I did what I called the Stink Test. I poured 5 gallons of strong
ammonia solution down the toilet, and shut up the trailer, and came back a
week later. No leaks and no smell even on my hands and knees by the toilet
base. This was while the coach was in a heated warehouse last winter, so the
air was still all around it.
Results? I have a brand new black water tank in my basement as it was
special
order and no refund was available! Its NOT for sale as I am digging into my
second 1966 coach, and haven't evaluated the situation yet.
After a year and 30,000 miles and a lot of full timing the tank holds still,
and seems vapor tight. TRY the JB Weld, first! Then test your work, because
new tanks are HARD to get a hold of and expensive and the old tanks seem to
mend easily if structurally intact.
PS Considering was a blasted nuisance it is to pull said tank, I would try
to
mend it "in situ" first, and testing before removing it, and having to work
"in vitro"
"I'm a lazy, lazy, man"
Krusty the Klown-
Hope this helps -
Alex In Indiana
66 Safari & Overlander
8728
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Message Number: 6
Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2002 23:24:34 -0600
From: "Raymond Pillar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: FW: Tanks for everything
-----Original Message-----
From: Raymond Pillar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Saturday, February 09, 2002 11:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FW: [VAC] Tanks for everything
Hi Jim,
This trailer has not been used by me, yet. I bought it at the end of Oct and
started tearing it apart. Everything is out of it now and I just finished
replacing (patching) the floor. I expect that I will be doing about 60%
boon docking. Like many I purchased the trailer and the more I got into it
the more that needed to come out. I am trying to stay the middle road and
not spend too much money, at the same time I don't want any failures while
out trying enjoy a vacation. That is why I am soliciting the expert
opinions.
Thanks
Ray Pillar
66 Safari
WBCCI 6514
-----Original Message-----
From: James Greene [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 11:48 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [VAC] Tanks for everything
Ray, tell us some more about how you use your trailer. If you do a lot of
boondocking that's one thing but if you always camp with hook ups that's
something else. What makes the most sense depends on how you camp.
I would not try to repair a 35 year old black water tank. If you have it
out, now is the time to replace it (assuming you don't plan to dispose of
the trailer any time soon). I'd probably get a roll around tank for gray
water if you are going to be camping where you can't drain gray water on the
ground and hook ups are not available.
Jim Greene
' 68 Tradewind
----- Original Message -----
From: "Raymond Pillar" <>
To: "Multiple recipients of VACList" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 08, 2002 0:36
Subject: [VAC] Tanks for everything
> Hi
> I would like to get the opinion of all you highly experienced VACer's. I
am
> rebuilding my 66 Safari and have removed the black tank. As you know the
66
> Safari has only a black tank. What do thing I should do.
> 1. repair the tank and reinstall it. 2. buy a new tank. 3. Buy a small
> black tank and a gray tank. or 4. Try to retro fit one small and one
medium
> size roll around tanks in the place where the old large black tank was?
> Thanks for your advice
> Ray Pillar
> WBCCI 6514
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------------------------------
Message Number: 7
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 07:39:01 -0500
From: "Whitlow Wyatt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: rust stains on Caravel
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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The hardware on the exterior of my Caravel is rusted. I drilled out and =
removed the door holdback latch, the front window rock cover/awning. =
The rust under this hardware and screws have made rust stains down the =
front and side of the trailer. What can I use to remove this rust stain =
without damaging the clear coat?
Whit
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charset="iso-8859-1"
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<HTML><HEAD>
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<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>The hardware on the exterior of my =
Caravel is=20
rusted. I drilled out and removed the door holdback latch, the =
front=20
window rock cover/awning. The rust under this hardware and screws =
have=20
made rust stains down the front and side of the trailer. What can =
I use to=20
remove this rust stain without damaging the clear coat?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2>Whit</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>
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------------------------------
Message Number: 8
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 06:26:52 -0700 (MST)
From: "Karl F. Larsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Question about penetrating epoxy
Hi Ted, After reading what you say about the plywood under the area, my
suggestion, which is a LOT of work, is to take everything out and replace
that 4 foot by 8 foot plywood with a new one of Naval Plywood. I know it's
expensive but it will not loose strengh even if wet.
My '76 Land Yaht is very nice to work with but the 3/4" ply has some give
and makes plastic tile fracture and look bad....I will think of something
better.
On Sat, 9 Feb 2002, T. Byrd wrote:
> Greetings all,
>
> Now that the electrical in the Overlander is operating, I turned my
> attention today to the plumbing. The aluminum shower/toilet combination
> was in serious need of sealing. I noticed the floor outside of the
> shower was a little spongy, so I took out the shower today to assess the
> damage. It's not as bad as it could be, but it's not great either. I
> knew that there had been problems in this area due to the copious
> amounts of silicone rubber smeared all over the seams in the shower and
> toilet stand. I disassembled the shower, pulled up the new sheet vinyl,
> and there it was...floor rot, of course. Luckily, it's not spongy enough
> to push my finger, or even a pocket knife, all the way through it, but
> it is soft, and it looks like the plywood has serious delamination. I've
> read the archives, and seeing how others have solved this problem, I'm
> going to use penetrating epoxy. However, I have several questions that I
> didn't see covered in the hundreds of posts on the subjects.
>
> 1. Due to the delamination, I think it's wise to follow the advice about
> drilling holes into the floor. I think the holes would be required to
> ensure that the epoxy penetrates all layers and has a chance to
> thoroughly fill in between the delaminating layers. Does anyone concur
> with this analysis? Or is the stuff wet and powerful enough to soak
> through all of the layers without the holes?
>
> 2. If the holes are required, how many should I drill? I'm thinking that
> a matrix pattern would probably be best to ensure good penetration, but
> how should I space the matrix? A 2" or 3" grid pattern is my gut
> feeling. Is this too large? Too small?
>
> 3. Looking up from below (sans belly pan), the delamination goes all the
> way to the rusting frame. Again, if holes are required, should I drill
> them all the way through the floor, and scab a piece of plywood to the
> floor from below? Or should I (try to) drill through all but the last
> layer of plywood?
>
> 4. Is the epoxy alone enough to restore strength to the floor? Should I
> also scab a piece of 1/4" plywood over the repaired floor afterward, or
> would this be over engineering the solution?
>
> Since I'm in the middle of this project, and there seems to be a large
> number of people who ask about this topic, I'd like to put together a
> How-To guide illustrating the process. I'll take the responses I've read
> in the archives, the responses I receive from this post, combine them
> with pictures of the before, during, and after treatment, and make them
> available to anyone (RJ?) with web space to present it. Unless, of
> course, something like this already exists. :)
>
> --
> Ted Byrd
> 1958 Overlander
>
--
Yours Truly,
- Karl F. Larsen, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (505) 524-3303 -
http://www.zianet.com/k5di/
------------------------------
Message Number: 9
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 10:35:58 EST
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Tanks for everything
Ray-
Jim has a good point about predetermining your needs for tanks. I am single
on the road and sometimes boondock at fairgrounds where no hook ups are
available, and ANY kind of dumping is seriously verboten and easy to detect,
if one thinks about being sneaky (and could never bring myself to do as it
would be a Bad Reflection on ANY Airstreamer). One shower, one dish washing,
and a couple of toilet flushes really fills my black water tank. I elected
not to install a gray water tank last year, and still may not, however. How
do I cope? At a fair ground there are lots of bathrooms and porta-pottys (or
Donnikers as circus folks calls them), use paper plates, or eat out, and
shower when you smell worse than the elephants! Oh, did I mention I'm a carny?
With some scouting around you many find your boondocking situations not so
unlike mine. Shorter coaches drive well enough on short distances with a load
of black water, but I'll let you know that I beefed up the tank hangers for
the peace of mind over engineering brings. Remember I'm usually alone on the
road. If you're lucky(?) enough to have a spouse with you, your sewage needs
may preclude my situation.
But other than those very few times of boondocking, I'm in a campground with
full hook ups, and NEVER miss not having a gray tank.
Maybe others can tell of their actual boondocking scenarios. The long
abandoned (and probably just as well) practice of gopher holing is supposed
to have originated on the eastern Canadian caravan during which the WBCCI was
originated. An actual gopher hole was allegedly employed. Legend has it that
later on the factory available Gopher Hole Cover plate became the palate for
lots of folk art painting and decoration. At least this is what I have heard.
On a barely related topic--
I have been thinking of hosting a VAC rendezvous in Indianapolis near where
I-65 & I-70 intersect, with high visibility for the public to see and visit
Airstreams, not unlike a vintage car show; in a wagon wheel campsite
formation on a grassy lot. But this means weekend long boondocking at least,
and a long way from any dumpsite. Would a honey dipper service that came on
the last morning of the event for pump out service be a good Idea? Or needed?
Your thoughts gang?
Alex (high and dry) in Indiana
66 Safari & Overlander
8728
------------------------------
Message Number: 10
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 09:15:12 -0700
From: "phil patterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Another idea on black water tanks
Last summer at Sturgis we met a couple who were truckers. They had a new
semi tractor with a nice sleeper on the back of the cab. It had queen bed,
kitchen and a bathroom. The black tank was what he called a cassette unit.
It was an option instead of a fixed tank. The cassette looked like a
suitcase with handle. It slid into a compartment and somehow mated with the
sewer system when in all the way. What was nice was they could pull the
cassette out and carry it with them to a bathroom and dump it down a toilet.
Phil
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------------------------------
Message Number: 11
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:27:24 -0800
From: "chyde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re:
Greetings all,
I'm in the process of restoring a 57 Sovereign of the Road. I just
purchased a used water heater from someone in the classifieds and it came
with the original steel door painted silver. I know that the water heaters
of the fifties had aluminum doors which I believe frequently fell off or
were damaged over the years. Needless to say I have been unable to find any
good photos of what they should look like. Is there anyone out there that
could send me off list a couple of photos and some basic dimensions of an
original water heater door? I have access to a small metal shop at work and
plan to fabricate a proper replacement. Any help would be much appreciated.
Colin Hyde WBCCI 10247, VAC
------------------------------
Message Number: 12
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 12:19:27 -0600
From: "Don Hardman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Another idea on black water tanks
>What was nice was they could pull the
> cassette out and carry it with them to a bathroom and >dump it down a
toilet.
For some reason I just can't picture this be "nice"
------------------------------
Message Number: 13
Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:05:23 -0800
From: Webmaster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: HWH Cover
Hi Colin,
As this is one of the subjects I get emphatically worked up about - "save
the Hot Water Heater covers" - I'll post some good close-up shots and some
dimensions on the website.
I've seen a couple of shop-made reproductions at rallies, so it is doable-
and they looked rather nice, so I think you'll be successful. Shoot, once
you get the prototype done, I bet you could sell at least 2 dozen or so of
them a year!
Here is a picture of one of the two styles that were used to tide you over
until I can get the camera and the trailer together in the same place.
http://www.VintageAirstream.com/myrtle_tour_details2.html
(click on the image to enlarge the picture)
RJ
VintageAirstream.com
> From: "chyde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 11:27:24 -0800
> To: Multiple recipients of VACList <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: [VAC] Re:
>
> Greetings all,
> I'm in the process of restoring a 57 Sovereign of the Road. I just
> purchased a used water heater from someone in the classifieds and it came
> with the original steel door painted silver. I know that the water heaters
> of the fifties had aluminum doors which I believe frequently fell off or
> were damaged over the years. Needless to say I have been unable to find any
> good photos of what they should look like. Is there anyone out there that
> could send me off list a couple of photos and some basic dimensions of an
> original water heater door? I have access to a small metal shop at work and
> plan to fabricate a proper replacement. Any help would be much appreciated.
>
> Colin Hyde WBCCI 10247, VAC
------------------------------
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