An experiment I'd be more than willing to think about, is to have a 'real
wikimania' every two years, and a more 'light edition' the other year (with
less aimed attendance, less WMF participation, maybe less subsidised, a
cheaper location, more like a wikicamp).

But, to look at that in a proper way, we have to know a bit more details,
and that requires a good discussion, rather than a one-off survey.

Lodewijk

On Fri, Feb 19, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hoi,
>
> Again, we have not "proven" in any way that it has to be cheap. When cheap
> comes at the prize of losing what is precious.
>
> When we choose to ignore the cost of WMF travel of personnel, we
> effectively cook the books because the need for WMF inclusion is high. It
> is one of the aspects that makes Wikimania precious.
>
> Much of the value of Wikimania is in meeting people from all over the
> world. This is happily ignored in a quest for a cheap experience.
> Thanks,
>        GerardM
>
> On 19 February 2016 at 02:06, Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Chris & Ellie:  I don't think I would include 'WMF Travel/Accomodation'
> or
> > general Wikimedia PR in the Wikimania overhead.
> >   * Staff have a budget for travel to events of all kinds; the Board has
> a
> > budget for its meetings wherever they are held; and similarly the few
> > committees that meet in person have a budget for those meetings.
> >   * The fact that these things happen to take place at Wikimania is, if
> > anything, a slight cost savings: some of the logistics of scheduling and
> > finding venues can be shared, it allows coordinating press events, &c.
> >
> >
> > Lodewijk, I agree: we should be able to find ways to limit direct
> expenses,
> > and increase sponsorships.  We could also increase the number of people
> who
> > benefit from scholarships, or are otherwise able to attend.
> >
> > Focusing on direct expenses from recent Wikimanias:
> > * 2014 budget:  $250K revenue + a $150K WMF grant.  Actual: $280K
> revenue,
> > needed $320K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> > * 2015 budget:  $150K revenue + a $300K WMF grant.  Actual: $100K
> revenue,
> > needed $380K from WMF to cover direct expenses
> > * 2016 budget:  $290K? revenue + a $250K WMF grant.
> >
> > Itzik, what were the equivalent budgets for Haifa?  From the post-mortem
> on
> > Meta it looks like a $280K budget, and a $100K WMF grant. This included
> > paying for the event coordinator, which is now budgeted separately. That
> > was for the finest event one could hope for.
> >
> >
> > Lodewijk writes:
> > > 'wikimania direct' is quite expensive, to be honest, and much more
> than I
> > > would have expected. However, it does include catering, which is always
> > > an expensive chunk...
> >
> > Registration fees should at least cover the marginal cost of the event:
> > catering & materials per person.
> >
> >
> > > looking at these figures, I can agree that it should be possible to do
> it
> > for
> > > less, I'm less certain though whether the proposed splitting up would
> > > significantly reduce the total costs for everything that is included
> > here.
> >
> > The greater part of money spent on attending Wikimania is the
> out-of-pocket
> > cost of flights and hotels.  The cost of this for non-local attendees is
> > 10-50x the cost of registration.  Running many simultaneous local events
> > has a greater total budget, if you look only at the budgets of the
> > organizers; but a much lower cost per person.  There are many more
> options
> > for free venues and low-cost lodging when you're not scrambling to fit
> 1000
> > people in a small region of a city.  And a smaller fraction of money
> spent
> > goes towards jet fuel.
> >
> > For this reason, the same pool of scholarship funds would go farther.
> >
> > Finally, I don't think we should oversell the current Wikimania as a
> > universal connector.  I too want there to be a community thing that
> builds
> > interpersonal connections and is accessible to every community member at
> > low cost.  But that thing cannot be a $2,000-net-cost week-long
> > conference.  Many people could never attend such an event, even if it
> were
> > free.  It is a long time commitment, and is inevitably mono or bilingual.
> >
> > Sam
> > (who loves the current Wikimanias, and thinks they should continue! but
> > doesn't think they are the pinnacle of what movement-gatherings could be)
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 18, 2016 at 5:52 PM, Sam Klein <sjkl...@hcs.harvard.edu>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > That's most helpful, thank you both.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:14 PM, Pharos <pharosofalexand...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Thanks, Ellie and Chris, this historical experience should be very
> > helpful
> > >> for future discussions!
> > >>
> > >> Best,
> > >> Pharos
> > >>
> > >> On Wed, Feb 17, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Chris Schilling <
> > >> cschill...@wikimedia.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > Hey folks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Ellie has put together a summarized budget including revenue and
> > >> expenses
> > >> > from Wikimania 2014 in London[1] and Wikimania 2015[2], which I've
> > gone
> > >> > ahead and posted to the summary pages of these conferences on meta.
> > >> >
> > >> > Thanks,
> > >> >
> > >> > Chris
> > >> >
> > >> > [1] <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014>
> > >> > [2] <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015>
> > >> >
> > >> > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com>
> > >> wrote:
> > >> >
> > >> > > Itzik writes:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > If we want to talk about the cost of Wikimania it will be great
> if
> > >> the
> > >> > > WMF and the local team will share the costs.
> > >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2014/Budget
> > >> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2015/Budget
> > >> > > > Maybe I missed something, but it's strange that such discussion
> > >> takes
> > >> > > place without a real budget breakdown.
> > >> > > > To summarize 2 huge event to "1$ million USD" does not make
> sense.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Agreed 1million%.  It would be important to see a rough cost
> > >> breakdown, &
> > >> > > compare that to the best-budgeted Wikimanias.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Tomasz Ganicz <
> polime...@gmail.com
> > >
> > >> > > wrote:
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > 2016-02-10 6:06 GMT+01:00 Samuel Klein <meta...@gmail.com>:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > > FUDCons
> > >> > > >
> > >> > > > Also it is hard to compare Wikimanias with FUDCons as it is
> > >> > > > a) much  smaller (usually bo more than 200 attendees)
> > >> > > > b) divided by regions - for example in 2015 there were 3 FUDCons
> > >> > > > (Argentina, India, Spain) and 2 Flocks (NY and Kraków) -  so
> they
> > >> are
> > >> > > > rather like our Iberecop or CEE meetings than the global
> > >> conferences.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Thanks.  Similar to regional events perhaps, not Wikimania.  Still
> > >> worth
> > >> > > comparing budgets perhaps, if available.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > But I was wondering about the trend over time: whether extensive
> > >> funding
> > >> > > during the RedHat days made the events less useful, in the years
> > after
> > >> > that
> > >> > > funding was reduced.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > And also Fedora developers have many potential sources of
> external
> > >> > > funding
> > >> > > > - mainly from IT companies which uses free software and want to
> > >> apply
> > >> > for
> > >> > > > their specific needs and for whom they quite often work.
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > True.  But attendees to GLAM or education conferences also tend to
> > >> have
> > >> > > many potential sources of funding - mainly from archives or
> > >> educational
> > >> > or
> > >> > > technical companies who curate knowledge or develop education
> tools.
> > >> And
> > >> > we
> > >> > > have IT industry partners who are similarly willing to support
> > >> > Wikimanias.
> > >> > > Not entirely dissimilar.
> > >> > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > > But anyway, Fedora offers scholarships for attendees, see:
> > >> > > >
> > >> > >
> > >> > > Yes, wiki conferences should as well - that part of conference
> > >> funding is
> > >> > > important.  Even early Wikimanias with almost no WMF support had
> > >> > > significant scholarship pools.
> > >> > >
> > >> > > S
> > >> > > _______________________________________________
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> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > --
> > >> > Chris "Jethro" Schilling
> > >> > I JethroBT (WMF) <
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:I_JethroBT_(WMF)
> > >> >
> > >> > Community Organizer, Wikimedia Foundation
> > >> > <https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Home>
> > >> > _______________________________________________
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> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Samuel Klein          @metasj          w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> > 4266
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Samuel Klein          @metasj           w:user:sj          +1 617 529
> 4266
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