+1 On 10 November 2016 at 09:00, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hoi, > You do not get it. Wikimania is first and foremost about spreading the word > about what we do and who we are. > > I have read Pax's original post. He did not go to Wikimania. He asks for > consideration that any Wikimania will be in a place where he feels safe. It > is OK for him to ask this but it is not OK for us to give away what > Wikimania stands for. > > There is no safe place and in my experience you are offensive by not > accepting that this is the point that I make. There is no perfect place for > Wikimania. Everywhere and always you have to behave yourself cognisant of > where you are. At all times there is one or the other group that will be > discriminated against. > > Fae, muslims are at a greater risk than LGBT people when they come to a > conference. Particularly women who wear a hijab will always be seen for > what they are. It is not a lie that you do not address the point that I > make. The question is why do we have a Wikimania and is it an instrument to > open up new communities and include them in our movement. > > This is the dominant question that should be answered. Relative safety is > secondary. > Thanks, > GerardM > > On 10 November 2016 at 08:46, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Gerard, > > > > Yes you are being offensive. You are deliberately painting a picture > > that somehow Pax, myself and others are attempting to make out that > > safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians is more important than safety of Women > > Wikimedians or the safety of Muslim Wikimedians. The only person doing > > that is you. > > > > You did the same thing on the 18th of October and it was pointed out > > to you that this was unacceptable, yet you are continuing to repeat > > it. Stop doing it, it is a lie, and the only person spreading it is you. > > > > Go back and read Pax's original post of 16th October which was positive > > about the Wikimania experience. > > > > Fae > > > > On 10 November 2016 at 06:57, Gerard Meijssen <gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > > > wrote: > > > Hoi, > > > The notion of offence is one where you take it where there is none > > > certainly no offence is intended. > > > > > > When you consider Wikimanias past, we have been to places where there > is > > a > > > "risk". Arguably there has been a risk in going to other countries in > the > > > past. When you consider the events themselves, as a group, we have been > > > rather isolated in our conference. Many people were exhausted of the > > > proceedings. Others went partying and came to the conference when they > > felt > > > up to it. > > > > > > This whole notion of security has been high jacked by LGBT concerns. > Let > > me > > > say that they are real. It would however be a travesty to say that they > > are > > > the only ones singled out for problems. Ask yourself, how many women > > > wearing a veil were there at the last Wikimania and at the one before. > > > Consider the stories about people, third generation Dutch, who are > > mistaken > > > for refugees and not safe in the streets of the place where I live. > > Stories > > > about not standing close to the gap at a railway station because ... > They > > > are as much a reality, they are as real. > > > > > > So you may find it offensive and it is. People are not safe. But when > > that > > > stops us from talking about it, when it can not be said that security > is > > > only one concern and not the most dominant one then I take offence. It > > > means that we can no longer exchange opinions. It means that we are > only > > > concerned with our own narrow interest losing the big picture. > > > > > > So Fae, take it from me. You are wrong to call me out for being > > > disrespectful. By calling me out in this way you elevate your opinion > and > > > put me down. Security is a concern but when fear is exchanged for > > prudence, > > > we will remove the one reason why we have Wikimania in the first place > > as a > > > worldwide conference. It is to go out and show the world who we are and > > > what we have to offer. > > > > > > When this is the prevailing opinion of our movement it does hardly > matter > > > that we have Wikipedias in over 280 languages because English and its > > > culture is the only Wikipedia that counts. Now that is effectively an > > > existing prejudice that is dominated in much of what I observe we do. > It > > is > > > another argument people feel offended. But hey most of you do not see > it > > > this way because "things trickle down".. As an economic measure it > failed > > > and it is how we ignore the major cultural differences that exist. > > > > > > Wikimania is not relevant when we do not go out and mingle world wide. > > When > > > we do not accept the differences that exist and make it our strength. > > > Thanks, > > > GerardM > > > > > > > > > On 9 November 2016 at 18:28, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > >> Gerard, > > >> > > >> You have posted several emails on the subject which read as > > >> disrespectful, can cause offence and discourage LGBT+ contributors to > > >> this list who may have otherwise openly expressed views. The line of > > >> argument that LGBT+ Wikimedians must expect to be at personal risk > > >> just to attend a Wikimania is repugnant to me, and is likely to be for > > >> a majority of other readers. This point of view runs counter to the > > >> values of the WMF or recognized affiliates. > > >> > > >> If you wish to develop a better understanding of how the basic safety > > >> of all attendees at future Wikimanias and other conferences should be > > >> a priority, this may be better done on-wiki rather than repeating your > > >> points on this list. > > >> > > >> I warmly recommend a reality check with friends off-list as to what > > >> might be read as offensive, should you wish to continue posting > > >> further emails about this particular topic. > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Fae > > >> > > >> On 9 November 2016 at 16:43, Gerard Meijssen < > gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > > > > >> wrote: > > >> > Hoi, > > >> > What is the point. When not even the USA is "safe", we have to be > > >> > realistic. Wikimania is about propaganda for what we do. We have to > > >> travel > > >> > and selecting a place is not about you, it is about them. It is > about > > the > > >> > people we aim to serve. > > >> > > > >> > I made my point before, it did not get any attention then and my > > argument > > >> > now is that nothing changed. It is only the perception of the USA > that > > >> has > > >> > been dented by an unfortunate "democratic" choice by last night's > > >> election. > > >> > Thanks, > > >> > GerardM > > >> > > > >> > On 9 November 2016 at 17:27, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < > > >> list-wikime...@funcrunch.org > > >> >> wrote: > > >> > > > >> >> Gerard, as a queer black trans person who feels unsafe even in San > > >> >> Francisco (and has felt that way for years), I would really > > appreciate > > >> you > > >> >> not pushing last night's election results in my face to make a > point. > > >> >> > > >> >> - Pax > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> On 11/9/16 8:24 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >>> Hoi, > > >> >>> Do you blame me for not feeling safe going to the USA? > > >> >>> Thanks, > > >> >>> GerardM > > >> >>> > > >> >>> On 8 November 2016 at 11:08, Gerard Meijssen < > > >> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com> > > >> >>> wrote: > > >> >>> > > >> >>> Hoi, > > >> >>>> Not going to North Corolina is absolutely fine with me. We do not > > gain > > >> >>>> anything by going there arguably not to any state in the United > > >> States. > > >> >>>> What Wikimania is, is a platform for propaganda for what we have, > > >> what we > > >> >>>> do, who we are and how we do what we do. In many countries > > Wikipedia > > >> is > > >> >>>> not > > >> >>>> the house hold name it is in the USA. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> Wikimania is not aimed for the English Wikipedia, it is aimed to > > >> further > > >> >>>> our movement. Not going to places is similar to saying that those > > >> other > > >> >>>> people, speaking other languages, with an other culture do not > > matter. > > >> >>>> They > > >> >>>> do. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> We should go to Russia, India, South Africa, China. The people of > > >> those > > >> >>>> countries should matter to us, the people we could share the sum > of > > >> all > > >> >>>> knowledge with. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> THAT is what we do, sharing the sum of all knowledge. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> When the choice of the venue is only about being safe, we should > > not > > >> go > > >> >>>> to > > >> >>>> the USA (I do not feel safe there), we should go to Germany, to > > >> >>>> Switzerland > > >> >>>> and move the office as well. It is not likely to happen, not > what I > > >> want > > >> >>>> either. > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> If there is one thing about LBGT, it is that that struggle is > still > > >> being > > >> >>>> fought. Hiding and keeping away does not work. It does not help > the > > >> LBGT > > >> >>>> community. More importantly in this context it does not help the > > >> >>>> Wikimedia > > >> >>>> community. For the latter it is vital to make our message > heard.We > > >> aim to > > >> >>>> share the sum of all knowledge and many people have not even > heard > > of > > >> us. > > >> >>>> Thank, > > >> >>>> GerardM > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> On 18 October 2016 at 16:00, Pax Ahimsa Gethen < > > >> >>>> list-wikime...@funcrunch.org> wrote: > > >> >>>> > > >> >>>> Gerard, this isn't about "holiday destinations", it's about human > > >> rights > > >> >>>>> and dignity. That's why I emphasized in my original post that > I'm > > >> >>>>> concerned > > >> >>>>> not only about the safety of conference attendees, but also > about > > >> those > > >> >>>>> living in the host country. The choice of a venue in a location > > with > > >> a > > >> >>>>> poor > > >> >>>>> human rights record reflects poorly upon Wikipedia/Wikimedia and > > our > > >> >>>>> mission to share knowledge. There's a reason a number of major > > >> companies > > >> >>>>> pulled their events and funding out of North Carolina after the > > >> >>>>> restrictive > > >> >>>>> restroom laws were passed for example... > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> - Pax > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> On 10/18/16 6:26 AM, Gerard Meijssen wrote: > > >> >>>>> > > >> >>>>> Hoi, > > >> >>>>>> For me safety is to a large extend secondary to what we aim to > > >> achieve. > > >> >>>>>> Our > > >> >>>>>> primary goal is to improve on our primary goal and it is > > "sharing in > > >> >>>>>> the > > >> >>>>>> sum of all knowledge". It is not for going to the perfect > holiday > > >> >>>>>> destination. > > >> >>>>>> Thanks, > > >> >>>>>> GerardM > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 13:56, Fæ <fae...@gmail.com> wrote: > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>> Gerard, could you provide some tangible examples of how other > > safety > > >> >>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> aspects of Wikimania would be compromised if there is any > > specific > > >> >>>>>>> attention paid to the safety of LGBT+ Wikimedians? I cannot > > imagine > > >> >>>>>>> how such a thing could be true. > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Based on my reading, nobody in this thread has asked for the > > >> safety of > > >> >>>>>>> LGBT+ attendees to be "prioritized" over other safety aspects. > > >> Please > > >> >>>>>>> don't make it appear as if they have. > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Thanks, > > >> >>>>>>> Fae > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> On 18 October 2016 at 11:42, Gerard Meijssen < > > >> >>>>>>> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com > > >> >>>>>>> wrote: > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> Hoi, > > >> >>>>>>>> I do care that everybody can come to places where they are > > safe. > > >> All > > >> >>>>>>>> the > > >> >>>>>>>> specific LGBT attention to safety is however on many levels > > >> >>>>>>>> problematic > > >> >>>>>>>> when we prioritise this over other safety aspects. The big > > picture > > >> >>>>>>>> for > > >> >>>>>>>> me > > >> >>>>>>>> is that we need to go to places where bringing Wikipedia and > > what > > >> it > > >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>> stands > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> for the most good. It is why I would go to Russia, to China to > > >> India > > >> >>>>>>>> to > > >> >>>>>>>> South Africa. > > >> >>>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>>> -- > > >> >>>>>>> fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >>>>>>> > > >> >> -- > > -- > > fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
