This reminds me of en wiki's non-free policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Non-free_content_criteria#1 highlights the point fairly clearly Usage of non-free materials is often easier and higher quality than using the free equivalent . However Wikimedia's mission and goal's are to support and promote free content, yes you will need to jump thru a few more hoops and adds a little more work. But without those driving factors we will often see the free options wither and fail.
On Tue, Mar 21, 2017 at 10:22 AM, Dan Garry <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey Magnus, > > There are a few other factors to consider in addition to those listed. For > example, development cost. Our maps tile service is not compatible with the > iOS app out of the box. This isn't surprising; Apple wants you to use > things like Apple Maps rather than your own solution. Android is, by its > nature, a more open platform, so I am not too surprised that it was easier > to integrate our tile server into the Android app than the iOS app. Sadly, > it's not as simple as just switching over to OSM-based tiles; on the > contrary, it's a significant amount of work. > > Now, using our tile service would also have required the iOS app to use the > MapBox SDK. This is the size of all their other third party libraries > combined, significantly increasing app download size. The size of your app > can significantly reduce downloads [1]. Switch a single feature over to a > different set of map tiles, and possibly decreasing downloads of the app, > seems like a dangerous and counterintuitive tradeoff to me. > > So the question is, given all this, is switching over the nearby feature to > use OSM-based tiles instead of Apple Maps worth it? In the long run, if > these problems could be solved, I'd say it absolutely is worth it. But, in > the short term, the work would take significant time and effort, and could > actually decrease app usage by decreasing the app download rate; that > tradeoff doesn't seem worth it to me. > > Thanks, > Dan > > Disclaimers: These are my opinions only. I worked on the apps in the past, > but haven't for two years; my statements about development costs may be > wrong, and the apps folks may well disagree with me about things. I work in > the department responsible for Wikimedia maps, but have only worked on the > team working on maps for a couple of months. > > [1]: https://segment.com/blog/mobile-app-size-effect-on-downloads/ > > On 15 March 2017 at 09:25, Magnus Manske <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Hi Josh, all, > > > > I am not one hell-bent on "FOSS or death"; I tend to use whatever works > > best. > > > > That said, the cost-benefit analysis of using Apple Maps seems to boil > > down: > > * Apple Maps has slightly better rendering (didn't check, but I assume) > > * Apple Maps uses less mobile bandwidth > > * Apple Maps is not free (as in freedom) > > > > Now, looking at these points: > > > > * Somewhat better quality is not an argument. If it were, we would have > > stayed with Britannica, and skipped that whole Wikipedia nonsense. > > Wikipedia became better, in part, because people actually used it, saw > the > > issues, and fixed them. And OSM rendering might be not quite en par with > > Apple Maps, it is quite usable, in my experience. > > > > * Less bandwidth usage is not an argument either. I doubt we are talking > > about a significant percentage of an average users' data volume here. If > > Android users can afford the bandwidth, so can people who buy an iPhone > > (source: used to have iPhone). > > > > * The price tag is the "non-freedom". As far as I can tell, this would be > > the very first Wikimedia "product" that incorporates non-free technology > > and data. It sets a precedence. It also has the potential to poison the > > otherwise great relations between the Wikipedia, Wikidata, and OSM > > community. It says "OSM is not good enough (at least for Apple users)" > > quite plainly. How would we feel if OSM started to remove Wikidata tags > and > > replace them with Britannica links? > > > > All in all, IMHO, the cost is too high for the (at best) flimsy benefits. > > > > Cheers, > > Magnus > > > > > > On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:52 AM Joshua Minor <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > My name is Josh Minor, and I am the Product Manager for the Wikipedia > iOS > > > app. I wanted to speak to a couple specific issues and > misunderstandings > > > raised by this email thread. > > > > > > First, please take a look at > > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service > > which > > > provides some background on this decision. Jonatan linked to it, and it > > > covers several of the concerns raised on the thread and gives our > > > reasoning. I'd also suggest subscribing to this ticket: > > > https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T157763 which Jonatan filed, and > where > > > you can track efforts and issues with replacement maps. > > > > > > A few clarifying points: > > > > > > 1. The Places tab[1], and its use of Apple’s maps tiles, is not part of > > the > > > articles or article display, it is a navigational aid to help you find > > > articles. This doesn’t mean it’s exempt from considerations raised > here, > > > but just want to clarify that this is not about editor created maps in > > > projects, but rather an app-specific discovery mechanism. > > > > > > 2. The feature doesn’t violate our privacy policy[2] and was reviewed > by > > > Wikimedia Foundation's Legal department before entering beta. The App’s > > > access to the users’ geolocation to recommend nearby articles, with the > > > users’ explicit consent, is already part of both apps. The new feature > > > merely adds a different way to visually view nearby articles - the user > > > must, as before, still provide explicit consent for the App to access > > their > > > geolocation. Users can always turn on or off the provision of their > > > geolocation via their iPhone location settings. > > > > > > The feature also makes requests to Apple’s map tile servers for display > > on > > > the App. These tiles may or may not be near the actual location of the > > > user. It doesn’t involve sending Apple the articles you read or > anything > > > about your Wikipedia usage. Apple has public statements and > documentation > > > to explain[3] how their maps service preserves privacy by using a > > > randomized and frequently changing device ID to request the maps, by > not > > > tracking users over time, and by not building map usage profiles of > > users. > > > Overall, Apple’s data collection practices are governed by their > privacy > > > policy [4], which users must agree to order to use their iPhones. > > > > > > We plan to further expand the explanation in the FAQ/privacy section of > > the > > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Maps_service > page > > > in > > > the next day or so. > > > > > > 3. As stated by others on this thread, the issue at hand is the > > feasibility > > > and usability of a libre maps tile server, and impacts on users and how > > it > > > reflects (or doesn’t) the values of Wikimedians. The rest of the work > on > > > this feature (such as the time spent on search, visually clustering > items > > > on the map, a list view of nearby landmarks, and the Wikipedia article > > > pins) will be applicable, independent of the map provider. In fact, I’d > > > estimate the engineer doing the work spent more time on hacking to try > to > > > make a combination of MapBox and Wikimedia tiles work, than he did/will > > on > > > integrating/removing Apple maps. > > > > > > 4. This feature was announced on the Wikimedia Blog[5], described in an > > > initial MediaWiki.org page[6], all work was documented and tracked on > > > Phabricator (including an initial tech investigation, the request to > > remove > > > Apple Maps during development, and the overall feature[7]) and then the > > > decision to push into beta with Apple Maps further documented on > > > MediaWiki.org[8]. > > > > > > In conclusion, I would like to thank you for the feedback and the > > > opportunity to engage in a civil discussion about these important > issues. > > > Again, if you are interested in the next steps, I’d invite you to > > subscribe > > > and comment on the phab ticket https://phabricator.wikimedia. > org/T157763 > > > or > > > the MediaWiki.org page. > > > > > > [1] Design specification: https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/T130889 > > > [2] > > > https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/ > > Maps_service#Privacy > > > [3] https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT203033, > > > https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207056, > > > http://www.apple.com/privacy/approach-to-privacy/ > > > [4] http://www.apple.com/privacy/privacy-policy/ > > > [5] https://blog.wikimedia.org/2016/06/17/wikipedia-mobile/ > > > [6] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/Nearby > > > [7] https://phabricator.wikimedia.org/tag/ios-app-feature-places/ > > > [8] https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Apps/Team/iOS/ > Maps_service > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: [email protected] > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > > wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: [email protected] > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > -- > Dan Garry > Lead Product Manager, Discovery > Wikimedia Foundation > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/ > wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: [email protected] > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: [email protected] Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:[email protected]?subject=unsubscribe>
