I'm aware that "knowledge" as a concept has a long history.  I would not
have expected the movement to have finally resolved the "problem of
knowledge", whatever that might be, nor did I say that I had.  I am
expressing surprise that there is not yet a common understanding that the
movement can rally round.

"Rogol"

On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 5:02 PM, Richard Farmbrough <
rich...@farmbrough.co.uk> wrote:

> The problem of knowledge is much older than Wikipedia.  It is part of the
> reason that so many intelligent people belive things that are "simply not
> so".
>
>
> On 11 Aug 2017 11:52, "Rogol Domedonfors" <domedonf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Is it not rather late to be discussing what "knowledge" might be, towards
> > the end of the second decade of a mission to bring the sum of human
> > knowledge to the world, and in the middle of a major effort to determine
> > the strategy of the movement into its third and fourth decades?  Surely
> by
> > now there is a clear, concise and actionable agreed definition of
> knowledge
> > that we can point to when people ask what all that money has been and
> > continues to be raised for?  Why not just point to that common position
> > that everyone has signed up to?
> >
> > "Rogol"
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 11, 2017 at 1:00 PM, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Information is "facts told, heard, or discovered" (Oxford) or
> "knowledge
> > > communicated or received concerning a particular fact or circumstance".
> > (I
> > > would say data and not knowledge, but knowledge is good enough for
> this.)
> > > If you can't observe the fact or circumstance, and can't communicate
> the
> > > fact, how can there be the information?
> > >
> > > Sorry, this does not make sense.
> > >
> > > On Wed, Aug 9, 2017 at 2:08 AM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ​
> > > > > Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ​very agree, the intangible sources are a really challenge to way you
> > > look
> > > > at verifiability. Not only are wanting to gather the information and
> > make
> > > > it possible for others to also access it the very nature of the
> sources
> > > is
> > > > dynamic and fragile bringing them into a tangible format risks the
> > > > continuation of knowledge gained, a kin to exposing an ancient paper
> > > source
> > > > to intense UV light.
> > > >
> > > > There is a lot of fantastic work going on around the world on how to
> > > > "Europeanise" knowledge without destroying it  .  All of this gets
> more
> > > > complex when you learn that knowledge isnt just a few words its part
> > of a
> > > > multidimensional connection to and in time, place, and circumstances
> > by
> > > > bringing it into a one dimensional world like Wikipedia is in it self
> > > > changing the very nature of the knowledge.   If our goal is to
> collect
> > > the
> > > > sum of all knowledge then we need to be free as communities to
> address
> > > the
> > > > uniqueness of the knowledge we seek within the bounds of
> > > culture(language)
> > > > from which it originates
> > > >
> > > > > ​
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 9 August 2017 at 04:12, Jean-Philippe Béland <
> jpbel...@wikimedia.ca
> > >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Verifiability can be very different. For example oral sources.
> > > > >
> > > > > JP
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017, 05:20 John Erling Blad, <jeb...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Policy should not have local variations, unless you want to
> create
> > > > > > something different from Wikipedia. This is about core content
> > > > policies.
> > > > > > Those are no original research, verifiability, and neutral point
> of
> > > > view.
> > > > > > The one most don't follow is neutral point of view, where
> projects
> > > > > rewrite
> > > > > > world history to focus on their own local view.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Aug 8, 2017 at 2:20 AM, Gnangarra <gnanga...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > its the cultural differences that influence the policy, so
> who's
> > > > > culture
> > > > > > is
> > > > > > > more significant than everyone elses that will dictate the
> > > policies.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On 8 August 2017 at 08:14, John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Yes there are cultural differences between wikipedias on
> > > _content_,
> > > > > but
> > > > > > > > there should be no differences on _policy_ about that
> content.
> > > > > > > > Note also that there are some differences on use of _facts_
> > that
> > > > are
> > > > > > > highly
> > > > > > > > troublesome, and that comes from relaxed core policies.
> > > > > > > > Armenian genocide for example.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Mon, Aug 7, 2017 at 3:48 PM, Gnangarra <
> gnanga...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > to quote, worth a read before even considering policies
> being
> > > > > global
> > > > > > > > > http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/asi.23901/
> > abstract
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > This article explores the relationship between linguistic
> > > culture
> > > > > and
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > preferred standards of presenting information based on
> > > article
> > > > > > > > > > representation in major Wikipedias. Using primary
> research
> > > > > analysis
> > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > number of images, references, internal links, external
> > links,
> > > > > > words,
> > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > characters, as well as their proportions in Good and
> > Featured
> > > > > > > articles
> > > > > > > > on
> > > > > > > > > > the eight largest Wikipedias, we discover a high
> diversity
> > of
> > > > > > > > approaches
> > > > > > > > > > and format preferences, correlating with culture. We
> > > > demonstrate
> > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > high-quality standards in information presentation are
> not
> > > > > globally
> > > > > > > > > shared
> > > > > > > > > > and that in many aspects, the language culture's
> influence
> > > > > > determines
> > > > > > > > > what
> > > > > > > > > > is perceived to be proper, desirable, and exemplary for
> > > > > > encyclopedic
> > > > > > > > > > entries. As a result, we demonstrate that standards for
> > > > > > encyclopedic
> > > > > > > > > > knowledge are not globally agreed-upon and “objective”
> but
> > > > local
> > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > very
> > > > > > > > > > subjective.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > On 4 August 2017 at 10:18, Ziko van Dijk <
> zvand...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > The number of pillars depends on the language version...
> > > > > > > > > > And whether some rules is called pilöar not dpes not seem
> > to
> > > be
> > > > > pf
> > > > > > > much
> > > > > > > > > > importance
> > > > > > > > > > Ziko
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > John Erling Blad <jeb...@gmail.com> schrieb am Do. 3.
> Aug.
> > > > 2017
> > > > > um
> > > > > > > > > 14:42:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > Five pillars are moot.
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 2:59 PM, Gnangarra <
> > > > gnanga...@gmail.com
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > The moment you have a centralised policy you take
> away
> > > the
> > > > > > > ability
> > > > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > > > > discuss, makes decisions, and achieve consensus from
> > the
> > > > > > > community
> > > > > > > > > that
> > > > > > > > > > > > create the projects. Importantly you create the
> > > opportunity
> > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > banned
> > > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > blocked editors to decide what happens in a
> community.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > By having a base set of simple policies in the
> > Incubator
> > > > that
> > > > > > are
> > > > > > > > > > > > atuomatically created when a project starts up you
> give
> > > > them
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > best
> > > > > > > > > > > guide
> > > > > > > > > > > > to establishing themselves well before that project
> > goes
> > > > > live,
> > > > > > > > ince a
> > > > > > > > > > > > project is live it has to be allowed to develop its
> > > > > community.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > We already have the 5 pillars which are the basis for
> > the
> > > > > > > projects,
> > > > > > > > > but
> > > > > > > > > > > > meta is not a place that the content creating
> community
> > > > > spends
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > time.
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > On 3 August 2017 at 19:07, John Erling Blad <
> > > > > jeb...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Having centralized core policies would lessen the
> > > > > maintenance
> > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > process,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > not increase them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Aug 3, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Strainu <
> > > > > > strain...@gmail.com>
> > > > > > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > The core policies should be the ones pushed by
> > board
> > > > > > > > resolution,
> > > > > > > > > > and
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > those should be the absolute minimum required to
> > keep
> > > > the
> > > > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > safe from a legal POV. Period. Otherwise, people
> > with
> > > > > > little
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > understanding of small Wikipedias will try to
> push
> > > > stuff
> > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > en.wp.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just recently someone was trying to have an RFC
> on
> > > meta
> > > > > on
> > > > > > > all
> > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > different processes that en.wp has and ro.wp does
> > not
> > > > > have,
> > > > > > > > with
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > little consideration on whether the manpower to
> > > > > implement,
> > > > > > > let
> > > > > > > > > > alone
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > maintain, these processes exists. No thank you to
> > > rule
> > > > > > > pushing
> > > > > > > > > > > without
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > local context.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having a community take a rule from en.wp is
> > > different,
> > > > > > just
> > > > > > > as
> > > > > > > > > > long
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > as some kind of discussion happens within the
> > > community
> > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > it.
> > > > > > > > > > > Even
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > if the rule is really useless or harmful and the
> > > > > community
> > > > > > > did
> > > > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > realize that in the beginning, at least it can
> > evolve
> > > > > > > > differently
> > > > > > > > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the English one. Have a centralized repository
> and
> > > > trying
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > > > > change
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > the rules there by consensus would be much more
> > > > difficult
> > > > > > for
> > > > > > > > > small
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > communities.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Strainu
> > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2017-08-02 17:05 GMT+03:00 John Erling Blad <
> > > > > > > jeb...@gmail.com
> > > > > > > > >:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nearly all Wikipedia projects has virtually the
> > > same
> > > > > core
> > > > > > > > > content
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > policies,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > but with slightly different wording. Nearly
> all,
> > > > > because
> > > > > > a
> > > > > > > > lot
> > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > smaller lacks them, and a lot has outdated or
> > only
> > > > > > partial
> > > > > > > > > > > policies.
> > > > > > > > > > > > It
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > takes a lot of time to actually make them and
> > keep
> > > > them
> > > > > > > > > updated.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Creating and maintaining the core content
> > policies
> > > > > should
> > > > > > > not
> > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > something
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that small projects should invest a lot of time
> > in,
> > > > > they
> > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > simply
> > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > able to point to existing policies on Meta. The
> > > > central
> > > > > > > > > policies
> > > > > > > > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > localized if necessary.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Checking Meta I find
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > > > wiki/The_no_original_research_
> > > > > > > > > > policy
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - https://meta.wikimedia.org/
> > > > > wiki/Neutral_point_of_view
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I can't find anything like "Verifiability".
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would it be possible for Wikimedia Foundation
> to
> > > make
> > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > sound
> > > > > > > > > > > > > baseline
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > policies, and with the option for local
> projects
> > to
> > > > > > refine
> > > > > > > > > those?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > Perhaps
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > with assistance from editors on Wikipedia?
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Lets try to make the policies accurate, without
> > "no
> > > > > > > original
> > > > > > > > > > > > research"
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > diverging into verifiability of external
> sources.
> > > It
> > > > > > should
> > > > > > > > be
> > > > > > > > > > > about
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > original research in content on Wikipedia.
> > > Likewise,
> > > > at
> > > > > > > some
> > > > > > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > neutral point of view has become "do not
> diverge
> > > from
> > > > > > > > creators
> > > > > > > > > > > point
> > > > > > > > > > > > of
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > view"…
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Would this be possible? It would be really nice
> > if
> > > > > those
> > > > > > > > > baseline
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > policies
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > pages could be copied to the individual
> projects
> > > like
> > > > > > > central
> > > > > > > > > > user
> > > > > > > > > > > > > pages,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > so they would be "internal" to the projects.
> Thus
> > > the
> > > > > > > > projects
> > > > > > > > > > > would
> > > > > > > > > > > > > have
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > more "ownership" of them.
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The same thing apply to other meta projects
> > > > (Wikipedia,
> > > > > > > > > > Wikibooks,
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wiktionary, etc).
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Jeblad
> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________
> _________________
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> > > > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > > > GN.
> > > > > > > > > > > > President Wikimedia Australia
> > > > > > > > > > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/
> wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > > > > > > > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________
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> > > > > > > > > --
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> > > > > > > > > President Wikimedia Australia
> > > > > > > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > > > > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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> > > > > > > GN.
> > > > > > > President Wikimedia Australia
> > > > > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > > > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
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> > > > --
> > > > GN.
> > > > President Wikimedia Australia
> > > > WMAU: http://www.wikimedia.org.au/wiki/User:Gnangarra
> > > > Photo Gallery: http://gnangarra.redbubble.com
> > > > _______________________________________________
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