Thanks for this, Galder. It's clear you went the extra mile to make sure all these issues were addressed and in ways that exceed any education project I have seen before, and I've been involved with Wikimedia and education since 2003!
-Andrew On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 12:01 PM Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga < galder...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I read this: > > On the other side, people who do outreach push too much for results with > lmited understanding of the ecosystem they ask students to interact. I have > met people who ask for "button men" at their initiatives with poor regard > for the real expertise, often overselling what they do. it's not nice to be > treated superficially when you try to explain why a certain topic is not > relevant or why sending a ticket is appropriate for a certain image. If you > are too focused on "your stuff", I wouldn't be surprised if you don't care > for a functional working environment as well. You just expect someone else > to build it for you. > > And I want to talk about what we did in this situation, and why the > environment triggers frustration. > > First, when the professors came with the idea of creating multimedia > contents for making richer Wikipedia articles, we focused on some issues: > the content should be as neutral as possible, all the content should be > original and the music used should be cc-by-(sa). We explained this idea > twice in two different meetings, first with one professor, then with all > the team that was going to guide the students. > > Second, we stressed on this ideas with students during a four hours (four > hours!) workshop. We gave them examples of bad content, we gave them > examples of good content, we encouraged them to use only free sources and > we explained how to work on Commons and why the content should be there. > > Third, the professors spent three more weeks with them, helping develop > the video, how to make good recordins, how to make them more neutral (what > to focus on), and how to find material that could be reused. > > Fourth, I went again with them to a four hour class where we revised all > the materials, we certified that all the music was free, we checked all the > illustrations and we asked not to upload those that were of poor value or > had any doubt about their copyright status. > > Fifth, we helped students to find suitable songs for their videos, how to > tag that the files were derivative works if applicable using Commons > uploading system, how to fill everything if they were using video2commons > and how to use the materials on wikipedia. It was my fourth morning with > the students, and the third one dedicated to Commons. We also explained > again what was the difference between free access and free license, because > some of the students didn't get why we were not allowing them to upload > some content. > > Sixth, yes, there is a sixth, I spent another morning with the professors > evaluating all the materials from a wikimedian point of view, talking about > their quality and designing improvements for next year. Students then > presented their works to a broader audience at the University. > > Seventh, students went on vacations. At this moment an admin decided that > all the previous work was not valid and claimed that it should be DW. > Period. And then I noticed that some stuff was missing when I started to > write a report about the experience for the Outreach Newsletter. And as I > have followed all the steps, I have a dedicated place at the Outreach > Dashboard where I can track everything this students created, uploaded or > edited: > https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/courses/HUHEZI/Ikus-entzunezko_komunikazioa_(2019)/home > . This content is public and can be easily reached in our dedicated > education programme portal: https://eu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari:Hezkuntza > > It should be maybe few days spent with them explaining how Commons work, > what licenses are suitable and why free content matters. If you feel so, > then I should explain that we have created two videotutorials, a leaflet > and a small book explaining everything we were explaining direcdtly to > them, so if they had any doubt they could read them. And we gave a copy to > each student, so they could have a guidance. And we also gave them a direct > e-mail so they could ask for copyrights issues: two of them did it and we > gave them some answers. > > Cheers > > Galder > ________________________________ > From: Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org> on behalf of > Alessandro Marchetti via Wikimedia-l <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> > Sent: Monday, May 13, 2019 5:30 PM > To: Wikimedia Mailing List > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Dispute between Common and Outreach > > We have dozens of cross project brainstorming off-wiki. But the general > feeling is often that if you encourage the social dynamics of a platform in > a way that people who like to "play cops" are a key actor... when this is > established there is no point in creating sophisticated or efficient tools, > because as long as they force such people to work in a different way they > will kinda oppose them. > For example, many time I find a deleted file I could spot dozens of > similar in the very same category and the few times I have asked the user > who deleted it or ask the deletion, I could feel he had no real interested > in completing the job. The fight for copyright is not a goal, it's a just a > mean for him. He probably has fun cherry-picking one random file, with no > consistent approach. So how many times for example I found files from the > USA where there is no FOP for statues deleted maybe if uploaded by the > European users but not by the American ones. Because of course if you did > delete them all (as you should), enwikipedia community will notice and it > will be a bigger deal.. it's a problem when all images of a monument > disappear, right? So let's delete some random files, and vanish when > somebody point out the other ones, just to repeat the same pattern > somewhere else after a while. That's why it's so easy to find en-N users > from the USA who have limited clue with rule of FOP. Now, the users who > perform this type of deletion pattern will dislike any tools or preference > who simply encourage to do it in a consistent way... they are expert and > they know how categories work, if they don't complete the job is probably > because they don't want to. If we get close to the issue, we manage to get > around some "the newbes will misuse it" or "its a delicate matter", I guess > the "good faith " clause will appear. > > So, we keep a random patrolling and retropatrolling on this issue, which > means poor overall copyright literacy, angry users because of the > procedural incoherence and in the end a huge backlog (since the bulk of the > files remain there). Take this dynamics, in other fields, with different > nuances, multiplied by a dozens of different legal and workload scenarios > and voilà. You have one of the reason of our current situation. > > I guess there is no tool which can fix that, it's just the way a community > really wants to be. Tools can help to encourage people to think differently > of course, but I fear that would be a strong resistance. > > A. M: > > > Il lunedì 13 maggio 2019, 16:56:49 CEST, Samuel Klein < > meta...@gmail.com> ha scritto: > > Ditto. But did not have the impression that this was {a, the} pressing > need. > Perhaps we also need better ways to highlight workload overloads (and > continue conversations about them through time, rather than sporadic > proposals of specific implementations that can easily fail) to stimulate > cross-project brainstorming to solve the most pressing problems of scale > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 6:02 AM James Heilman <jmh...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > I have a fairly good understanding of copyright. Deal with a fair bit of > > copyright issues occurring via paid editing and flicker washing of images > > and would be happy to do admin work around that if the Commons community > > was interested. > > > > James > > > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 4:00 AM Paulo Santos Perneta < > > paulospern...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > Wikimedia project communities in general seem to be quite stagnant, if > > not > > > declining, apart from Wikidata, which is and always will be a whole > > > different case. In the case of Commons it was already very much as it > is > > > now when I joined in 2009. I always found it a very pleasant place, but > > > overtime I understood I was the exception there, and most people had > bad > > > experiences. And it is as Yann has shown there, it's a few sysops > running > > > the entire show almost alone, not because they want that, but because > > > nobody else helps with that. > > > > > > IMO the problem is not with the existing sysops, but because people in > > > general do not feel attracted to copyright and other similar minucious > > > stuff which marks everyday life in Commons. And, without that knowledge > > it > > > is pointless, if not counterproductive, to place a candidacy to sysop. > No > > > idea what the solution could be, but it certainly is not blaming > Commons > > > and the existing sysops. If more people was interested in copyright, > less > > > mistakes would be happening in Commons as well. Whatever the solution > is, > > > it probably passes by that. > > > > > > Best, > > > Paulo > > > > > > Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga <galder...@hotmail.com> escreveu no dia > > segunda, > > > 13/05/2019 à(s) 07:09: > > > > > > > A good question to ask would be why the admin group is not growing. > And > > > > maybe (maybe) we can find a common answer to both problems pointed > > here. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > > Unsubscribe: > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > > > > > -- > > James Heilman > > MD, CCFP-EM, Wikipedian > > _______________________________________________ > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > > > > -- > Samuel Klein @metasj w:user:sj +1 617 529 4266 > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> > _______________________________________________ > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe> -- -Andrew Lih Author of The Wikipedia Revolution US National Archives Citizen Archivist of the Year (2016) Knight Foundation grant recipient - Wikipedia Space (2015) Wikimedia DC - Outreach and GLAM Previously: professor of journalism and communications, American University, Columbia University, USC --- Email: and...@andrewlih.com WEB: https://muckrack.com/fuzheado PROJECT: Wikipedia Space: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:WPSPACE _______________________________________________ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
