> "What about children feeling patronized" compared to "what about pedophiles 
> grooming there or promoting their views"
> "Santa Claus" as a controversial article rather than masturbation and so on...


Truthfully, I’m still concerned about child molesters and other kinds of child 
abusers (cyberbullies, etc.), along with parents becoming offended at topics 
like masturbation, puberty, etc. I just have “softer” objections as well, and 
chose to be euphemistic. We’ve had (rare!) issues in the past with adults 
approaching minor children, and the WMF has had to ban said adults from editing 
all WMF wikis. Since this hasn’t been an issue for you, it’s probably better 
that you don’t fix what’s not broken.

> It seems it doesn't include the (althought allready heard) "it would have to 
> be censorded but we don't want it to be censorded => impossible"

Yeah, I think we all know what’s going to end up being censored. Masturbation 
will be censored much more quickly than Santa Claus.

From,
I dream of horses
She/her





> On Jun 24, 2022, at 2:02 AM, Mathias Damour <mathias.dam...@gmx.fr> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
>  
> I'm glad the objections to such a project became somewhat softer with the 
> years !
>  
> "What about children feeling patronized" compared to "what about pedophiles 
> grooming there or promoting their views"
> "Santa Claus" as a controversial article rather than masturbation and so on...
>  
> Yet they are still strong, we could update this page with this discussion :
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids/Questions_and_answers
> It seems it doesn't include the (althought allready heard) "it would have to 
> be censorded but we don't want it to be censorded => impossible"
>  
> "Also children are individuals, just like adults. There's vastly different 
> levels of maturity and interest"
> Sure, that's how we get young editors on Vikidia !
>  
> "12 year old me would've felt very patronized"
> That's right that some of the young editors on Vikidia told that at first 
> they wanted to edit the "real" Wikipedia, they had some kind of disdain for 
> Vikidia. Then they felt more as ease in the Vikidia community, and they feel 
> quite the opposite than being patronized when they can have their word in the 
> founctionning, tutoring some newer editors, get some patrol or admin rights, 
> and so on. They are typically Wikipedia readers in the same time.
> About readers, that's not such a big issue as well. Do children feel 
> humiliated that there is books and magazine for them ?
>  
>  
> Envoyé: vendredi 24 juin 2022 à 06:12
> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" <idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>
> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>
> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> 12 year old me would've felt very patronized by something like this.
>  
> As a twelve year old who read on a college level, I would’ve been patronized 
> as well, but my parents, my dad especially, would’ve tried to pressure me to 
> using “wikikids” instead of Wikipedia, if both existed. It would’ve caused 
> conflict in the house, and I would’ve gotten little outside support even if 
> people knew my reading level. (“Your parents are worried about you! Consider 
> yourself lucky!”) It would’ve turned me off wiki editing entirely.
>  
> I also don't like the potential implications, because this could go the route 
> of removing content that any parent finds objectionable from being 
> accessible. 
>  
> This slippery slope has been proven to exist. American parents are, after 
> all, vocal enough about being Offended™, to the point that they will change 
> policy on a WMF-affiliated Wikikids site. For example, articles on literally 
> anything reproduction/reproductive anatomy related (even articles like 
> “puberty,” which starts between 8-14), even though it’s entirely educational 
> and directed towards children, will spark enough controversy that something 
> would need to be done. There would be no other way to not have Wikikids hit 
> the news in a negative way.
>  
> Another potentially controversial article: Santa Claus. Same issue as above 
> with potential negative reputation.
>  
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
>  
> 
>  
>  
> On Jun 23, 2022, at 8:47 PM, Clover Moss <clovermosswikipe...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:clovermosswikipe...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>  
> Also children are individuals, just like adults. There's vastly different 
> levels of maturity and interest and that shouldn't be limited based on your 
> age, outside of extreme situations that are actually relevant to age. 12 year 
> old me would've felt very patronized by something like this. I also don't 
> like the potential implications, because this could go the route of removing 
> content that any parent finds objectionable from being accessible. I was 
> raised as a Jehovah's Witness and part of the reason I lost my faith was 
> being able to find information about other perspectives (e.g. LGBT+ rights, 
> atheism, blood transfusions, etc).
>  
> On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 9:57 AM WereSpielChequers 
> <werespielchequ...@gmail.com <mailto:werespielchequ...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> Hi,
>  
> I'm curious as to what level of reading skill you are writing this for and 
> also what level of understanding/adulthood.
>  
> I see these as two different issues and both are likely to vary sharply 
> especially between different countries with very different education systems. 
>  
> A childrens' encyclopaedia written for nine year olds would surely be very 
> different than one written for thirteen year olds. And content that parents 
> of fourteen year olds thought was age inappropriate in Alabama might be 
> thought appropriate or even bowdlerised by parents of ten year olds in London.
>  
> In other words, are you sure that one single childrens' encyclopaedia is the 
> answer to either the problem of reading age or age appropriate content?
>  
> Where I think that Wikipedia could and should change re this is in our use of 
> jargon. To my mind a "general interest" english language encyclopaedia should 
> be written in plain English. I suspect other language versions have similar 
> issues.  Perhaps if we focussed more on this we would make it easier for 
> those who wish to create childrens' versions.
>  
> Regards
>  
> WSC
>  
> On Thu, 23 Jun 2022 at 13:03, <wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org 
> <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org>> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
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>    1. Re: Small joyy: Txikipedia  of the da(Neurodivergent Netizen)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 22 Jun 2022 17:13:33 -0700
> From: Neurodivergent Netizen <idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>>
> Subject: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> Message-ID: <8c62ada1-09ee-46ff-b27d-389b6bb3e...@gmail.com 
> <mailto:8c62ada1-09ee-46ff-b27d-389b6bb3e...@gmail.com>>
> Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>         boundary="Apple-Mail=_9EEB7F4B-E2E5-42FB-AED5-C7C07107CEF2"
> 
> >> That wouldn't be a wise choice that WMF host such a wiki if it brings the 
> >> risk of being legaly attacked on that ground, even for bad reasons and 
> >> unsuccessfully, whereas it never happened to Vikidia in 15 years (and very 
> >> few kind of bad buzz like "look what they teach to the children").
> 
> And of course, any WMF-affiliated wiki would be more at-risk simply because 
> of the association with the more well-known Wikipedia.
> 
> > The document is not really public yet. :-)
> 
> I think I can wait until it’s public and proofread. :-)
> 
> From,
> I dream of horses
> She/her
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jun 22, 2022, at 1:45 PM, Ziko van Dijk <zvand...@gmail.com 
> > <mailto:zvand...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> > Hello,
> > At the moment I am working on a document that extensively explains how
> > we work on the Klexikon. If someone is interested, please send me a
> > private message. The document is not really public yet. :-)
> > Kind regards
> > Ziko
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Klexikon 
> > <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Klexikon>
> >
> > Am Mi., 22. Juni 2022 um 19:27 Uhr schrieb Mathias Damour
> > <mathias.dam...@gmx.fr <mailto:mathias.dam...@gmx.fr>>:
> >>
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >> De: "Neurodivergent Netizen" <idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com 
> >> <mailto:idoh.idreamofhor...@gmail.com>>
> >> I think a particular hurdle for a standalone WMF-affiliated kidipedia 
> >> project is the COPPA, and other similar laws both in the US and elsewhere 
> >> that could potentially increase civil liability. Another hurdle is that 
> >> America is very aware, perhaps overly aware, of the potential safety risks 
> >> when children are involved in websites. Then you add in the fact that kids 
> >> are likely to continue editing Wikipedia instead of Kidipedia, and it’s 
> >> not worth the extra effort.  This effort would include hiring/reassigning 
> >> staff so you can have a team of people for just Kidipedia, along with the 
> >> background checks and identity verification needed. None of that are 
> >> obstacles that aren’t in the way of kids editing the existing projects.
> >>
> >> I predict a WMF-affiliated kidipedia would largely be abandoned quite 
> >> quickly.
> >>
> >> You are probably right. I would say COPPA may not be the biggest hurdle, 
> >> yet the british "UK Safeguarding Vulnerable Groups Act 2006" is another 
> >> one, and moreover the fact that "America is very aware, perhaps overly 
> >> aware, of the potential safety risks when children are involved in 
> >> websites" (and I would also say that "America" weight more the right of 
> >> parents to control what is taught to their children and less the right of 
> >> the children to inform themselves - the latter being upheld by the 
> >> Convention on the Rights of the Child, which the US didn't ratificate - 
> >> compared to other countries).
> >> We reviewed it on https://en.vikidia.org/wiki/Vikidia:Legal_matters 
> >> <https://en.vikidia.org/wiki/Vikidia:Legal_matters>
> >>
> >> That wouldn't be a wise choice that WMF host such a wiki if it brings the 
> >> risk of being legaly attacked on that ground, even for bad reasons and 
> >> unsuccessfully, whereas it never happened to Vikidia in 15 years (and very 
> >> few kind of bad buzz like "look what they teach to the children").
> >>
> >> You tell about "hiring/reassigning staff so you can have a team of people 
> >> for just Kidipedia", well, that's quite exactly the point I adressed on 
> >> this blog post :
> >> Vikidia, l’anti-professionnalisation
> >> https://www.wikimedia.fr/vikidia-lanti-professionnalisation/ 
> >> <https://www.wikimedia.fr/vikidia-lanti-professionnalisation/>
> >> ...to tell that the vision of children needing to be only alongside their 
> >> closed family and professionals workers - and that it should be the same 
> >> if a wiki for children is set (that we would need professionnal educators 
> >> either to write the articles, to design the project or to manage the 
> >> community or all that together) - did cause much delay to the wiki 
> >> encyclopedias for children, and how we do otherwise on Vikidia.
> >>
> >> Reminder, the Wikikids project was developped on this page and subpages :
> >> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids 
> >> <https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikikids>
> >>
> >> Envoyé: mercredi 22 juin 2022 à 12:37
> >> De: "Galder Gonzalez Larrañaga" <galder...@hotmail.com 
> >> <mailto:galder...@hotmail.com>>
> >> À: "Wikimedia Mailing List" <wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org 
> >> <mailto:wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org>>
> >> Objet: [Wikimedia-l] Re: Small joy of the day: Txikipedia
> >> From our experience, is just the opposite: Wikipedia is not asking any 
> >> extra step nor age confirmation, and legally you can have an account even 
> >> if you are underage. Children are consulting Wikipedia without limits, and 
> >> they can find adult content easily. We don't have any advice about that, 
> >> nor filters at Commons, where you can find even porn using words that were 
> >> not intended for that. The place is open, and we have massive visits from 
> >> children, so providing them a better place, thought for them (as our 
> >> strategic direction says) is better that not providing at all.
> >>
> >> I can only agree!
> >>
> >>
> >> Mathias Damour
> >> [[User:Astirmays]]
> >> _______________________________________________
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