>Everyone is working on the same goals here. I encourage continued partnership >and efforts to find ways to work around some of the problems lists on this >thread (including implementation of some of the solutions listed on this >thread too). > >The challenges of improving the experience for readers and editors in many >Indic languages that are not well supported by the current powerhouses of the >internet is huge...but doable, if we continue to work together.
Sure Barry. I do agree. - Sundar "That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted." - George Boole, quoted in Iverson's Turing Award Lecture >________________________________ > From: Barry Newstead <bnewst...@wikimedia.org> >To: Wikimedia India Community list <wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >Sent: Wednesday, December 14, 2011 11:35 PM >Subject: Re: [Wikimediaindia-l] Webfonts deployment on Indic Wikiprojects > > >Hi all, > > >Just cross-posting a note from Siebrand that he just sent out [1]. > > >Everyone is working on the same goals here. I encourage continued partnership >and efforts to find ways to work around some of the problems lists on this >thread (including implementation of some of the solutions listed on this >thread too). > > >The challenges of improving the experience for readers and editors in many >Indic languages that are not well supported by the current powerhouses of the >internet is huge...but doable, if we continue to work together. > > >[1] http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikitech-l/2011-December/056966.html > > >Best, >Barry > > >On Wed, Dec 14, 2011 at 9:53 AM, BalaSundaraRaman <sundarbe...@yahoo.com> >wrote: > >Hi, >> >> >>Due to my ongoing wikihiatus, I haven't followed much of discussions in this >>list. But, I'm interested in this issue because I was following and >>supporting the original request filed by User:SanthoshGuru asking for such a >>support in 2005.[1] While I welcome the recent energy in building and >>launching solutions for Indic languages by WMF. However, like Srikanth and >>Bala have mentioned, we should ensure that we don't break the experience of >>thousands of readers visiting the wikis everyday. The situation is very >>different now than in 2005. So, let us take care to test every new launch >>tested out in translatewiki before rolling out. We can perhaps create a >>rollout routine to include a thumbs-up from some community volunteers. >> >> >>Regards, >>Sundar >> >> >> >> >>[1] - https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2361 >> >> >>"That language is an instrument of human reason, and not merely a medium for >>the expression of thought, is a truth generally admitted." >>- George Boole, quoted in Iverson's Turing Award Lecture >> >> >>>________________________________ >>> From: Srikanth Lakshmanan <srik....@gmail.com> >>>To: Discussion list on Indian language projects of Wikimedia. >>><wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> >>>Sent: Tuesday, December 13, 2011 9:17 PM >>>Subject: [Wikimediaindia-l] Webfonts deployment on Indic Wikiprojects >>> >>> >>> >>>Hi all, >>> >>> >>>Pardon for a long mail, just unavoidable. >>> >>> >>>We have seen the WebFonts roll out[0] last night to most Indic wikis except >>>Malayalam and Tamil. We in Tamil Community felt WebFonts extension is just >>>not ready for us. We would like to share on why we in Tamil community didnt >>>chose webfonts and also what could work better in future for Indic >>>communities during technology adoption. >>> >>> >>>1. Unavailability of "Quality Free fonts" :- >>>During the development, our request for not setting the default font as a >>>lower quality font was rejected citing "it will defeat the purpose of >>>extension".[1] The available fonts had issues and deploying the extension >>>with those low quality fonts to everyone would not only defeat the purpose >>>of extension, but also gives Tamil Wikipedia a bad image when people just >>>cant read the fonts even though they had better fonts in system. (Just like >>>how i18n team says people who see boxes will just simply close the window, >>>we say giving these poor fonts will also lead to same thing and not help the >>>cause, instead will also hurt those who have better fonts.). >>> >>> >>>2. Quality of User Experience :- >>>We are a smaller wiki, we have a smaller reader base, but still we are >>>ranked 7th most visited website in Tamil according to alexa[2]. Just like >>>how no-nonsense / no-mediocrity is tolerated in any code that enters WMF >>>cluster, any change which will affect the site's look and feel, user >>>experience will have to be of highest standards and must be accepted by >>>community. WebFonts were just not ready to enter Wikipedia, since it changes >>>the UX for all the readers to help a potentially lower number of users who >>>dont have Tamil fonts than the current existing reader base. >>> >>> >>>What we feel was wrong in WebFonts deployment >>> >>> >>>We have also been seeing the wikis where they have been rolled out and >>>reporting issues. We ourselves are reporting issues inspite of not taking >>>WebFonts, with the hope software just gets better and some day we can deploy >>>them. Dont get us wrong, we are not against technology, we just need it in >>>better form and are not in any urgency. (After all we at Ta wiki initiated >>>an RFC and asked Webfonts even before the announcement was made). We would >>>also like to mention some points which we feel i18n team could have done >>>better for a smoother launch. >>> >>> >>>1. Font Testing :- >>>The point of language support team is that the people who are aware of >>>language give feedback to make any software better supported for the >>>language. We are not sure if Font-Testing was ever done at all for those >>>languages where the WebFonts were deployed. The hinting issue which was a >>>concern and made us raise against deployment in Tamil is also present in >>>Hindi,Sanskrit,Telugu(atleast till we saw) and gave the same worst >>>readability. The i18n team did font assessment[3], testing only 1 word to >>>test the font. Can any font be tested with just rendering of 4 characters / >>>1 word? For Tamil,we did a test in little more comprehensive way(We would >>>not say its complete)[4]. This should have been a *must* to see rendering / >>>font issues with chosen default font especially since the fonts are being >>>set default to every single user to the site. Sadly community was involved >>>the least, a note was posted in Village pumps and we dont think community >>>involved itself in any testing and poor quality was eventually pushed without proper testing. >>> >>> >>>2. Real world testing :- >>>Though cross browser testing was done, there was a severe lack of real world >>>testing and as a result we are seeing a host of issues being discovered post >>>launch. Average PC in India might have 1 GB RAM, Firefox 3 / 4, worse IE 5.5 >>>/ IE6 on 100 Kbps semi-broadband connection. We cannot tell them move to >>>latest or ignore them. More care should have been taken especially since the >>>webfonts is bound to set a default font. >>> >>>With only a few hours of testing serious issues have been found - in IE 8 >>>where webfonts might be rolled back [5], IE 7.0 (where webfonts dont work) >>>[6] , ubuntu + Firefox (fixed now) [7] and Win+Firefox 5.0, [8]. We are >>>still testing for other browsers and usecases and dont know how many issues >>>we will discover. In short - This code is not ready to go live, especially >>>when it is being made default compulsorily for everyone. There are serious >>>performance issues for typical Indian internet connections as well.[9] >>> >>> >>>3. Communication and Community Engagement :- >>>Most of the above things could have solved earlier if there was more >>>communication and community engagement. We asked for more information, >>>engagement on this very list. There was no reply to the mail on increasing >>>community engagement for i18n projects[10]. Most communities know WebFonts >>>is coming on Dec 12, didnt know what was coming, any further details. Worse, >>>Even Indic Consultant was not having clear information. Why this lack of >>>transparency? Community is more than willing to help, if only they are >>>informed. Even though we did not take up WebFonts, we have spent time to >>>help making it better. >>> >>> >>> And the end users in the wikis dont know where to report and follow up >>>issues. (Not everyone is aware of and familiar with the Bugzilla process). >>>The request we raised to have a visible bug reporting link has not been >>>acted upon [11]. There might be a lot of issues going unreported, because >>>people dont know whom to report to. When a change of this scale is being >>>done, Community admins must be advised to run Sitenotice campaigns to inform >>>the users about the change with some solid newbie oriented documentation. >>>Infact this must be done for RFC itself, so as to make an informed decision. >>>We did the same for RFC in Tamil[12]. >>> >>> >>>Proposal for Future i18n / any special deployments to Indic wikiprojects :- >>> >>> >>>The WebFonts deployment is a classic example of making deployment without >>>enough community engagement. Can this done in any of English / German / >>>Russian wikipedia which have a strong community? The fact that Tamil / >>>Malayalam resisted was because the community had concerns over the solution. >>>Till an hour before deployment yesterday, we did not know if Ta wiki >>>projects will get webfonts despite our objections. We had been pursuing >>>Siebrand and Gerard across forums - facebook, twitter, meta talk pages, >>>village pumps, gmail chat etc looking for answers. But till the deployment >>>happened, we had no clue what we would be getting. This method of deploying >>>in silence *must* stop ASAP. Any deployment to any Indic wiki must go >>>through the community (language support teams) informed of the change with >>>Indic Consultant kept in loop. We suggest Shiju Alex to work on a policy and >>>put it in place regarding this. If there is problem identifying community >>>members to help, we are sure Shiju will help connecting. >>> >>> >>>Irrespective of that happening Tamil Wiki Projects will follow this process. >>> >>> >>>1. Test any deployment on translatewiki >>>2. File Bugs and verify in translatewiki till it reaches acceptable level. >>>3. Language support team member will make a RFC page explaining the merits / >>>demerits of the technology in simple terms with use of screenshots / >>>external links >>>4. Reverify / Ask for deployment in largely-inactive Wikiprojects like >>>WikiQuote / WikiBooks *post community concensus* >>>5. Test again / File Bugs >>>6. Reverify / Ask for deployment Wikiprojects next in line in terms of >>>activity ( Wiktionary / Wikinews/ Wikisource) >>>7. Test again / File Bugs >>>8. Only after ironing out all issues, any deployment will be allowed in >>>Tamil Wikipedia. >>> >>>We had burnt our fingers during Narayam deployment already once and >>>community was so resistive of Narayam itself and was asking to go back to >>>older javascript solution. After that we followed the above process for >>>bringing back Narayam on all Tamil Wikiprojects. >>> >>>We suggest the other communities adopt something similar. We sincerely hope >>>that the community engagement is improved, not just before deployment, even >>>from start of development. >>> >>> >>>[0] http://blog.wikimedia.org/2011/12/12/going-live-december-12-2011/ >>>[1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/30506 >>>[2] http://www.alexa.com/topsites/category/Top/World/Tamil >>>[3] http://translatewiki.net/wiki/WebFonts_assessment >>>[4] http://translatewiki.net/wiki/User:Sodabottle/test1 >>>[5] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/32775 >>>[6] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/33024 >>>[7] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/33025 >>>[8] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/33018 >>>[9] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/33027 >>>[10] >>>http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimediaindia-l/2011-November/005153.html >>>[11] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/32942 >>>[12] http://tawp.in/r/2r1f >>> >>>-- >>>Regards >>>Bala Jeyaraman & Srikanth.L >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>>Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>>To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>>https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >>Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >>To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >>https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l >> >> > > > >-- >Barry Newstead >Chief Global Development Officer >Wikimedia Foundation > > >Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in >the sum of all knowledge. Help us make it a reality! > >http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Donate > >_______________________________________________ >Wikimediaindia-l mailing list >Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org >To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit >https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l > > > _______________________________________________ Wikimediaindia-l mailing list Wikimediaindia-l@lists.wikimedia.org To unsubscribe from the list / change mailing preferences visit https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaindia-l
