[Winona Online Democracy]
Thanks for taking so much time to research and reply Roy.
One thing we're still missing in this discussion of the differences in pay
between private/parohcial/charter and public schools is the significate
difference is the value of the benefit packages each group enjoys. Any data
available on that topic?
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Nasstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Online Democracy" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 03, 2006 2:50 PM
Subject: Re: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias
In response to Mike Kirschman's questions:
1. "Do salary numbers you report include private, charter, and parochial
schools?"
No, I gave mean figures for public schools only. Some private schools pay
higher salaries than public schools. Of schools belonging the National
Association of Independent Schools, the average salary of a head of school
in the 2002-2003 year (the last year for which data were available) was
$128,004. The highest salary was $285,415. But the lowest was $30,052.
Although some private independent schools do pay teachers more than public
school teachers), most provide lower salaries.
The mean salaries in 2002-2003 of teachers in non-parochial private
schools accredited by National Association of Independent Schools was
$38,000, which is lower than the mean salaries of public school teachers
in many states. Mean basic public school teacher salaries in 2002-2003
ranged from $53,280 in New Jersey (the following year, Connecticut, with
56,516, California and New York passed New Jersey for the top spots) to
$30,890 ($33,236 the next year, still the lowest) in North Dakota. The
mean in the United States for that year was $45,578; the next year it was
$46,597. Minnesota in 2003-2004 ranked 19th, with $45,010. Although no
salary source is perfect, the best for public school teachers seems to be
supplied by the American Federation of Teachers.
Parochial schools pay far less to their teachers. A good example is New
York City, in which the beginning regular salary (exclusive of special
additions) is $39,000 in public schools and $26,000 in parochial schools.
At top salary schedules the differences are more notable, with public
schools giving over $81,000 in basic salary and parochial schools giving
barely $40,000.
I do not know salaries of private schools or charter schools in Winona
County or adjacent areas. Can anyone supply information?
2. "How do differences in pay among types of schools compare to student
learning outcomes?"
Many questions in education carry such strong political and ideological
baggage that clear findings are impossible to uncover, and the problem is
especially complex in relating pay to student achievement, given valid
measurement problems and differences among students, parents, locales etc.
There is no uncontested evidence that, other things being equal, pay
differences between public schools and private counterparts can be related
to student outcomes. There is no doubt that by measurement of entry to
elite universities, occupational choice, and income in life, graduates of
schools affiliated with the Independent Schools do much better than
average public school graduates. But they are select students, usually
with strong parental support and interest. (After all, parents pay from
$10,000 to $20,000 yearly tuition.) I suspect that their counterparts in
public schools, even though constituting a minority except in the most
affluent suburbs, do just as well in life.
Perhaps a better measurement may be differences in graduation rates
between parochial and public schools in the same area. In New York City's
inner-city Bedford-Stuyvesant and South Bronx, parochial schools have a 99
percent high school graduation rate and public schools have a 68% rate.
Again, these figures must be taken with some qualifications, but it should
be pointed out that parochial schools in the city do accept many problem
students.
3. "Do numbers you report differentiate between district or individual
school size?"
No. I provided overall figures. Superintendents in large districts make
more than those in small districts. For example, according to data
supplied by the Educational Research Service (http://www.ers.org/), during
the 2003-2004 school year salaries of superintendents of districts with
25,000 or more students averaged $174,805. Districts with 10,000 to 24,999
students averaged $140,435. Districts with 2,500 to 9,999 students
averaged $117,839. Districts of 300 to 2,499 averaged $96,387. In many
large districts, businesses have supplemented salaries when state law
allows such supplements. Moreover, various fringe benefits-car expense or
outright provision of car), club membership, etc-are common in contracts
in large districts but not as popular in smaller districts. Fringe
benefits often comprise 25 percent of salary. Payment to superintendents
in large districts is rising quickly, much to the annoyance of teacher
organizations and many citizen groups. Those supporting higher salaries,
however, compare the superintendent's responsibilities to those of large
business heads and argue that the supply of highly competent
administrators falls below the demand. One of the highest overall incomes
currently received is that of the superintendent of Miami-Dade, Rudy Crew.
His income will rise to $540,000 a year in 2008, and includes a car,
generous retirement benefits, and a home loan that will be liquidated if
he remains on the job for 4 years.
Roy Nasstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Roy Nasstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Leslie Hittner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"Kathy Seifert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Paul Double" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"Online Democracy" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 1:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias
Thank you for finding and sharing the information Roy.
Let me go out on a limb here and suggest that perhaps we're still
missing a couple of large and important pieces of the salary question in
this discussion. Please feel free to correct me if my reasoning is
wrong.
Do the salary numbers you report include private, charter, and parochial
schools?
For example, and on a local level particularly, what do public school
teachers, administrators, and principals earn when compared to private,
charter, or parochial teachers, administrators, and principals?
And perhaps more importantly, how do the differences in pay among types
of systems compare to student learning outcomes?
Do the numbers you report differentiate between district or individual
school size?
In other words, should a principal of a school with 200 students earn
the same as a principal of a school with 1400? Shouldn't we ask the same
question when we're talking about district sizes and Superintendent
salaries?
Mike Kirschmann
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy Nasstrom" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Leslie Hittner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Kathy Seifert"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Paul Double" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Online
Democracy" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias
[Winona Online Democracy]
Some data may be helpful in comparing teachers' and school
administrators' salaries. According to the latest survey of the
Department of Labor, in May 2004, elementary and secondary school
administrators in the United States had a median annual earnings of
$74,190.A survey by the Educational Research Service, indicated higher
salaries. According to the ERS, salaries in the 2004-2005 school year
were as follows:
Senior high principals $82,225; jr. high/middle school principals
$78,160; elementary school principals, $74,062. Respective salaries for
assistant principals were $68,945, $66,319, and $63,398. Given the
responsibilities these administrators have, the salaries appear low, but
they reflect local values and fiscal capacity.
According to the latest survey of the American Federation of Teachers
(whose data is used by the U. S. Department of Labor), the median
salary of public school teachers in the United States in 2003-2004 was
$45,597. This figure excluded income for extra duties.
Local school superintendents' salaries vary widely, but outside a
handful of major cities, few top administrators receive four times the
salary of teachers. Superintendents do tend to be the most highly paid
of all local (and a vast majority of state) officials, but the
difference between their salaries and those of their employees is not
comparable to the sometimes astronomical differences in private
business.
Roy Nasstrom
----- Original Message -----
From: "Leslie Hittner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Kathy Seifert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Paul Double"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Online Democracy" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias
[Winona Online Democracy]
I think Bryon is talking about dollars in the private sector. He states
at
the end of his post that school administrators in Minnesota (not in
charter
schools, however) are making about 4 to 1 over the average teacher
salary.
That's probably correct. His statements about private sector top
administrator salary compared to the "worker bee" pay is pretty
accurate
too.
-Leslie Hittner
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kathy Seifert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Paul Double" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Online Democracy"
<[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 7:02 PM
Subject: Re: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias
[Winona Online Democracy]
I think he was speaking of the number of administrators (principals)
for
each teacher within the district--we are talking about people, not
dollars
:)!! That's the heart of the problem--if it's only about the bottom
line
dollar and not about the quality of the product, we'll never be
talking
about the same thing. I'm sure we can operate a school district with
less
and less over the years, but at what point does it become a school
district
that produces little of value and why in the world would that be our
goal?
Kathy Seifert
----- Original Message -----
From: "Paul Double" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Online Democracy" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:56 PM
Subject: FW: [Winona] School Administrators/NPR bias
[Winona Online Democracy]
Bryon
Are we missing something from your post?
460 to 1 or in real dollars Administrators are making $13.8 million
dollars
if the teacher is paid $30,000 or even $1.38 million using 46 to 1?
Even your ratio of 4 to 1 I find hard to believe. Maybe the
Minneapolis
or
St. Paul school district superintendents in the Twin Cities are
pulling
those ratios but not in Greater Minnesota.
Paul Double
Behalf Of Bothuns
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 4:25 PM
[Winona Online Democracy]
I'm sorry, but when I read somewhere that the solution to our
education
problems is simply to cut spending, on anything, I just have to laugh,
and
then cry. Right now countries like Colombia, Malaysia and Hungry
already
outspend the US on Education as a percentage of GDP. No disrespect
intended, but should we assume that it is OK to come in behind those
countries and still claim to be the leaders of the free world?
When the average Principal to Teacher pay ratio hits 460 to 1, as it
is in
the private sector, or perhaps just 46 to 1, like it was in the US
private
sector just 20 years ago, then I'll get interested in cutting
administrative
expenditures. Right now it stands at about 4 to 1 in Minnesota which
clearly implies that it needs to go up not down.
Bryon Bothun
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