What do those cost?

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com


>-----Original Message-----
>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>Behalf Of Curtis Maurand
>Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:08 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>
>
>Something like that.  These guys have one that runs for 90 hours is 250
>watts 12 or 24 VDC and uses a methanol and water mix.  methane fuel
>cells don't use platinum and are, therefore, less expensive.  Its
>configurable with an RS-232 port.  It can be used as a battery charger
>as well so that if your system has dropped to battery, it will recharge
>the battery after its charge has dropped to a configurable level.  Its
>pretty cool stuff.  I was looking to  backup power an entire data center
>with one of the larger ones a couple of years ago.  There is a european
>company called BAXI that makes fuel cells as well.   This one is perfect
>for the application requirements in the original email.  I don't recall
>them as being that expensive either.
>
>
>http://www.idatech.com/Products-and-Services-iGen-System2.asp
>
>
>--Curtis
>
>Tom DeReggi wrote:
>> Thanks....
>>
>> PS. Isn't Hydrogen Fual Cell the technology Spring just got like $X
>billion
>> grant to pioneer?
>>
>> Tom DeReggi
>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Curtis Maurand" <cmaur...@xyonet.com>
>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:14 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>
>>
>>
>>> Sorry, I should have posted this page.
>>>
>>> no moving parts.
>>>
>>> http://www.idatech.com/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>>
>>>> Patrick,
>>>>
>>>> All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom DeReggi
>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>> From: "Patrick Shoemaker" <shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com>
>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM
>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on
>a
>>>>> commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum
>using
>>>>> even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing
>>>>> company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting
>surface
>>>>> for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting
>>>>> management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could
>be an
>>>>> issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas
>>>>> supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections.
>Then
>>>>> the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed
>EC.
>>>>>
>>>>> I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new
>site:
>>>>> $1500 including shipping.
>>>>>
>>>>> A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All
>generators
>>>>> break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled
>models
>>>>> don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a
>>>>> battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever,
>you
>>>>> won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power
>goes
>>>>> out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models)
>have
>>>>> contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to
>your
>>>>> site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick Shoemaker
>>>>> Vector Data Systems LLC
>>>>> shoemak...@vectordatasystems.com
>>>>> office: (301) 358-1690 x36
>>>>> http://www.vectordatasystems.com
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell.
>>>>>> Actually,
>>>>>> we got a good 15 years out of the existing C&D batteries, because
>we
>>>>>> inherited them from Teligent days :-)
>>>>>> But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt
>and
>>>>>> decent
>>>>>> run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters.  (The
>Triplites
>>>>>> worked
>>>>>> really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight
>years. We
>>>>>> matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice
>>>>>> versa.)
>>>>>> So
>>>>>> our thought was.... Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time
>and
>>>>>> load,
>>>>>> and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges,
>power
>>>>>> conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when
>>>>>> batteries
>>>>>> short out.  Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now
>have
>>>>>> duplicate need of devices to power.  Some are AC devices like PC
>>>>>> routers.
>>>>>> Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear
>running on
>>>>>> 48V.
>>>>>> Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC
>and
>>>>>> DC
>>>>>> backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How
>many
>>>>>> new
>>>>>> radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We
>>>>>> really
>>>>>> dont know in advance.  There is a lot of power waste going from AC
>to
>>>>>> DC
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> AC to DC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the
>propaine
>>>>>> generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed
>with
>>>>>> lower
>>>>>> cost lower run-time batteries.  We'd still need to account for max
>>>>>> watts
>>>>>> growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements
>for
>>>>>> both
>>>>>> subsystems.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with
>>>>>> batteries
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting.
>Although, I
>>>>>> bet
>>>>>> my
>>>>>> ruthless roof rights people will try to charge me a monthly colo
>fee
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> them :-(
>>>>>> I wonder if I can make the solar panels look like rain/weather
>shields
>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom DeReggi
>>>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>> From: "jp" <j...@saucer.midcoast.com>
>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <wireless@wispa.org>
>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 PM
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a
>>>>>>> pain.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, os10ru...@gmail.com
>wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example)
>which
>>>>>>>> includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic
>transfer
>>>>>>>> switch. Add the batteries and you're done.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>>> That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning
>toward a
>>>>>>>>> UPS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost
>less
>>>>>>>>> and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the
>>>>>>>>> batteries @ 24VDC.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thanks again
>>>>>>>>> Jerry
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-
>boun...@wispa.org]
>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Gary Garrett
>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM
>>>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Small generators do not auto start very reliably.
>>>>>>>>> When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can
>overheat
>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>> burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas
>engines,
>>>>>>>>> propane can "flood" and need to rest before trying again,
>diesel can
>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>> REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to
>>>>>>>>> changing
>>>>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>>>> Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3
>phase.
>>>>>>>>> (1955
>>>>>>>>> Model)
>>>>>>>>> The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times.
>>>>>>>>> Everything is
>>>>>>>>> adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage
>from
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds.
>Only
>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>> huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator
>is not
>>>>>>>>> starting and get it fixed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Jerry Richardson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup
>but it
>>>>>>>>>> does not start reliably.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only
>need
>>>>>>>>>> to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>>>>>>> Jerry Richardson
>>>>>>>>>> airCloud Communications
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> /*
>>>>>>> Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and
>DSL
>>>>>>>    KB1IOJ        |   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and
>Hosting
>>>>>>> http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Maine
>http://www.midcoast.com/
>>>>>>> */
>>>>>>>
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