I don't remember, you'd have to call them.

--C

3-dB Networks wrote:
> What do those cost?
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>
>
>   
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On
>> Behalf Of Curtis Maurand
>> Sent: Thursday, August 06, 2009 8:08 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>
>>
>> Something like that.  These guys have one that runs for 90 hours is 250
>> watts 12 or 24 VDC and uses a methanol and water mix.  methane fuel
>> cells don't use platinum and are, therefore, less expensive.  Its
>> configurable with an RS-232 port.  It can be used as a battery charger
>> as well so that if your system has dropped to battery, it will recharge
>> the battery after its charge has dropped to a configurable level.  Its
>> pretty cool stuff.  I was looking to  backup power an entire data center
>> with one of the larger ones a couple of years ago.  There is a european
>> company called BAXI that makes fuel cells as well.   This one is perfect
>> for the application requirements in the original email.  I don't recall
>> them as being that expensive either.
>>
>>
>> http://www.idatech.com/Products-and-Services-iGen-System2.asp
>>
>>
>> --Curtis
>>
>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>     
>>> Thanks....
>>>
>>> PS. Isn't Hydrogen Fual Cell the technology Spring just got like $X
>>>       
>> billion
>>     
>>> grant to pioneer?
>>>
>>> Tom DeReggi
>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Curtis Maurand" <[email protected]>
>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 04, 2009 3:14 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Sorry, I should have posted this page.
>>>>
>>>> no moving parts.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.idatech.com/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Patrick,
>>>>>
>>>>> All excellent points, and reality checks. Thanks for the feedback!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Tom DeReggi
>>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>> From: "Patrick Shoemaker" <[email protected]>
>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 5:58 PM
>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>>>> I think you'll find that to get a propane/NG generator installed on
>>>>>>             
>> a
>>     
>>>>>> commercial building rooftop, you'll be looking at $10k minimum
>>>>>>             
>> using
>>     
>>>>>> even the cheapest Generac air-cooled units. You'll need a roofing
>>>>>> company to come out and modify the roof to provide a mounting
>>>>>>             
>> surface
>>     
>>>>>> for the generator, that will probably be the biggest cost. Getting
>>>>>> management comfortable with modifying a $300k roof membrane could
>>>>>>             
>> be an
>>     
>>>>>> issue as well. Then getting gas to the unit from the building's gas
>>>>>> supply will require a plumbing contractor, permits, inspections.
>>>>>>             
>> Then
>>     
>>>>>> the electrical hookup- more permits and inspections and a licensed
>>>>>>             
>> EC.
>>     
>>>>>> I just got a quote for qty 8 110AH 12v AGM batteries for a new
>>>>>>             
>> site:
>>     
>>>>>> $1500 including shipping.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A note on the Generac air-cooled generators. They break. All
>>>>>>             
>> generators
>>     
>>>>>> break. The key is routine testing and PM. The generac air-cooled
>>>>>>             
>> models
>>     
>>>>>> don't have any provision for automatic alarm reporting. So when a
>>>>>> battery dies or gas valve sticks or spark plug fouls or whatever,
>>>>>>             
>> you
>>     
>>>>>> won't know about it until a manual site inspection or the power
>>>>>>             
>> goes
>>     
>>>>>> out. The better generators (and the Generac liquid cooled models)
>>>>>>             
>> have
>>     
>>>>>> contact closures or RS232 interfaces to report these conditions to
>>>>>>             
>> your
>>     
>>>>>> site monitoring system, in turn notifying you back at the NOC.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Patrick Shoemaker
>>>>>> Vector Data Systems LLC
>>>>>> [email protected]
>>>>>> office: (301) 358-1690 x36
>>>>>> http://www.vectordatasystems.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tom DeReggi wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>             
>>>>>>> We also use the triplite APS inverters with good quality Gel cell.
>>>>>>> Actually,
>>>>>>> we got a good 15 years out of the existing C&D batteries, because
>>>>>>>               
>> we
>>     
>>>>>>> inherited them from Teligent days :-)
>>>>>>> But new, qty 4- 12V 150AH batteries in series for about 3500watt
>>>>>>>               
>> and
>>     
>>>>>>> decent
>>>>>>> run-time is $1400. + $800 for replacement inverters.  (The
>>>>>>>               
>> Triplites
>>     
>>>>>>> worked
>>>>>>> really well, but about half of them died by the end of eight
>>>>>>>               
>> years. We
>>     
>>>>>>> matched good inverters with good pre-existing batteries and vice
>>>>>>> versa.)
>>>>>>> So
>>>>>>> our thought was.... Why not buy a $2000 generator for the run-time
>>>>>>>               
>> and
>>     
>>>>>>> load,
>>>>>>> and then several smaller UPSes for infront to cover the surges,
>>>>>>>               
>> power
>>     
>>>>>>> conditioning, and monitoring? Ones that keep running even when
>>>>>>> batteries
>>>>>>> short out.  Part of the reason we are investigating is that we now
>>>>>>>               
>> have
>>     
>>>>>>> duplicate need of devices to power.  Some are AC devices like PC
>>>>>>> routers.
>>>>>>> Some are 20-24VDC w/AC adapters. Some are new licensed gear
>>>>>>>               
>> running on
>>     
>>>>>>> 48V.
>>>>>>> Cost is increased having long battery run time on both seperate AC
>>>>>>>               
>> and
>>     
>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>> backup power subsystems. And how do we plan for load growth? How
>>>>>>>               
>> many
>>     
>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>> radios installed will be AC or DC? Unlicensed versus Licensed? We
>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>> dont know in advance.  There is a lot of power waste going from AC
>>>>>>>               
>> to
>>     
>>>>>>> DC
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> AC to DC.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The thought was... If long run time was accomplished by the
>>>>>>>               
>> propaine
>>     
>>>>>>> generator, both DC and AC battery subsystems could be installed
>>>>>>>               
>> with
>>     
>>>>>>> lower
>>>>>>> cost lower run-time batteries.  We'd still need to account for max
>>>>>>> watts
>>>>>>> growth for each subsystem, but we could way reduce AH requirements
>>>>>>>               
>> for
>>     
>>>>>>> both
>>>>>>> subsystems.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or am I making this to complicated, and better just sticking with
>>>>>>> batteries
>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Chris Erikson's idea on solar panels sounded interesting.
>>>>>>>               
>> Although, I
>>     
>>>>>>> bet
>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>> ruthless roof rights people will try to charge me a monthly colo
>>>>>>>               
>> fee
>>     
>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>> them :-(
>>>>>>> I wonder if I can make the solar panels look like rain/weather
>>>>>>>               
>> shields
>>     
>>>>>>> :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Tom DeReggi
>>>>>>> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
>>>>>>> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>>>>>> From: "jp" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> To: "WISPA General List" <[email protected]>
>>>>>>> Sent: Monday, August 03, 2009 12:11 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>               
>>>>>>>> The tripplite APS is what we use for this. Small generators are a
>>>>>>>> pain.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, Aug 02, 2009 at 02:57:23PM -0430, [email protected]
>>>>>>>>                 
>> wrote:
>>     
>>>>>>>>                 
>>>>>>>>> You might want something like an inverter (Xantrex for example)
>>>>>>>>>                   
>> which
>>     
>>>>>>>>> includes a DC to AC inverter, battery charger, and automatic
>>>>>>>>>                   
>> transfer
>>     
>>>>>>>>> switch. Add the batteries and you're done.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Greg
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Aug 2, 2009, at 2:38 PM, Jerry Richardson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>                   
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you,
>>>>>>>>>> That is very good advice. After some research, I'm leaning
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> toward a
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> UPS.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> A pair of good AGM batteries and charge controller will cost
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> less
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> and be far less maintainence. Then I'd just run the CMM off the
>>>>>>>>>> batteries @ 24VDC.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thanks again
>>>>>>>>>> Jerry
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>>>>>>> From: [email protected] [mailto:wireless-
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> [email protected]]
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> On Behalf Of Gary Garrett
>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sunday, August 02, 2009 11:59 AM
>>>>>>>>>> To: WISPA General List
>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Small auto start generator
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Small generators do not auto start very reliably.
>>>>>>>>>> When cold or dampness causes hard starting the starter can
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> overheat
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>> burn out. Generally you need an electric choke to start gas
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> engines,
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> propane can "flood" and need to rest before trying again,
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> diesel can
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> be
>>>>>>>>>> REAL hard to start when cold. Auto starters can not adapt to
>>>>>>>>>> changing
>>>>>>>>>> conditions.
>>>>>>>>>> Our best generator is a Propane Ford inline 6 cyl. 25 KW 3
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> phase.
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> (1955
>>>>>>>>>> Model)
>>>>>>>>>> The monitor cranks for 1 min then rests and tries 3 times.
>>>>>>>>>> Everything is
>>>>>>>>>> adjustable. It knows to stop cranking when it sees AC voltage
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> from
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>> Gen. so the motor over runs the starter for just a few seconds.
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> Only
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>>>>> huge starter motor can take this abuse and last unattended.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You may be money ahead to find out why the existing generator
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>> is not
>>     
>>>>>>>>>> starting and get it fixed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Jerry Richardson wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>                     
>>>>>>>>>>> We rent on a tower that is suspposed to have gen-set backup
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>> but it
>>     
>>>>>>>>>>> does not start reliably.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Any recommendations on a small auto-start generator? We only
>>>>>>>>>>>                       
>> need
>>     
>>>>>>>>>>> to power a CMMmicro - ~100watts.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> __________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> Jerry Richardson
>>>>>>>>>>> airCloud Communications
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------
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>> ------------------
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>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>> /*
>>>>>>>> Jason Philbrook   |   Midcoast Internet Solutions - Wireless and
>>>>>>>>                 
>> DSL
>>     
>>>>>>>>    KB1IOJ        |   Broadband Internet Access, Dialup, and
>>>>>>>>                 
>> Hosting
>>     
>>>>>>>> http://f64.nu/   |   for Midcoast Maine
>>>>>>>>                 
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