Following are dangerous statements may offend many egos and thus causing them to unsubscribe from the list. Therefore, I hereby denounce the bearing of any responsibility from my ego writing.
Being a Zen practitioner, the most valuable Act of Giving is the Gift of Dharma. Ferrying sentient beings to the Buddhaland offers long-term merit than the gift of clothing or food. (Diamond Sutra)
Yet, during the short years that I was sharing, I have learned that I can not give a first grader a book for six grader. I often need to wait until he wakes up to realize the fact he is enslaved by his ego. Otherwise, he will not be commited to practice Zen. Without commitment, meditation is uninteresting and painful.
Concepts such as Depedent Origination or Karma, are, in my dictionary, in the spiritual class. If you ask me whether I personally have witnessed their affect on me. The answer is definitely a loud yes. Not only on me but on many practitioners in our groups. If I share any of these experience with a newbie to Zen, I will be a nut-case in his "mind". He may instantly drop from the session, then I will be bearing the karma of loosing him. (see PS)
Therefore, the first step is always using common terms to address the issues only relating to our body and mind. After one witnessed a few glimps of the Inner Self, then we may venture into the spiritual side of Zen, which could be well witnessed in our school through our method of practice.
Because spirituality is in a domain by itself, it is quite impossible to describe, convey, or hand it to others without being in that domain, meaning a self-experience. Therefore it is more effective if these terms are used in conjunction with Dharma Terms as a tool to ferry, to make aware, to point the way.
After Buddha simplied Vedanta, Chan further simplied Buddhism and Zen even simplied Chan some more, just my incomplete observation, having a grasp of the roots of the teachings solidifies the witness and in turn helps the mind to be connected closer to the spirit.
Personal spiritual experiences are vastly different from one parctitioner to another and they are partial at best. It is proper to communicate the fundamentals in Dharma Terms to cover wider ground of this concept.
"Dependent Origination" is, however in my view, not complex, if we can perceive a simple fact that every word that I have posted is "dependent" on every other words posted and also interdependent on the depth of language itself, my thoughts at this moment and everyone elses at the moment of reading, sutras quoted including all the misprint, incomplete knowledge of it, partial and personal experiences, etc. etc.
So are all the sutras, teachings, sessions, we, me, you, etc. etc......
Nothing is absolute. Everything is relative.
I had fun. Thank you.
Welcome more challenges.
Donald
PS. In the Great Vehicle, there is this concept of "Related karma", every ego that we have a chance, or actually "caused" to meet is "related", we need to ferry everyone to Buddhaland. Pissing them off may back fire, I am usually very careful about that. Afterall, Vedanta specifically mentioned that "ignorance" is the only cause of unhappiness.
After they are on board, then we can yell or beat them up like Rinzai. At that time, I will ask Bill to help out.
Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Saturday, July 22, 2006 8:18 PM Donald Hwong wrote:
>Good morning Bill,
>Thank you for your post.� I love your style, often filled with Firepower,
very close to >RinZai. It's Fun.
>Dependent Origination is the essence of Thai Buddhism and an important one
as well >to Vedanta. Even Thik Nahn Han's Interbeing may be Originated from
that.
>What DavidK and You have pointed out that they occur together and
inter-dependent >are absolutely true in concept.� There is just a big
different in Chinese and English. The >word in Chinese is milder.� That
said, however, I trust we both agree that English and >Chinese are both
"translated".
Agreed. Translations are certainly subject to misunderstandings and
miscommunication.
My previous response was to issue a general challenge the use of the term
'Dependent Origination' which seem to me to be 180 degrees from the
traditional zen approach which de-emphasizes complex concepts and big words
- in fact any words. . 'Dependent Origination' is a very complex concept
which is evident just from the fact that you, DaveK and Dharmastudent
discussed it at length for several postings. My challenge was, does the
concept of 'Dependent Origination' come from YOU? From YOUR EXPERIENCE? Or
is it only a phrase you've read in the sutras? And if you say it does come
from your experience, why are you using someone else's words to express it,
and why do you have such a difficult time expressing it in plain,
uncomplicated words?
>My Flash of that moment Originated directly from the Ego of Others, that
the word >"Dependent" may be offensive to their Ego.
I liked your 'Flash of that moment...'. That, for my money anyway, is
closer to zen then repeating words from a sutra. And I personally don't
worry about offending the ego of others (or my own for that matter). That's
their problem - opportunity actually. Perhaps if they get their ego
offended enough times they'll start to think about just what their ego is,
why is it offended, where it comes from, etc... That would be a very good
result - and just might also give them a real experience with the concept of
'Dependent Origination'.
>Then at the same time, I also have
>learned that "Dharma Talk" communicates better if not translated into
"Common >Terms".
I was really taken aback about the statement above. As you can tell I'm a
big fan of common terms. What is your objection or reluctance to using
common terms? What have you 'learned' by trying to use common terms in a
dharma talk?
>The sole purpose of sutra is to wake us up, so that we can practice.� It is
not my >purpose to edit, or change what is being posted or regarded as
authoritative.
>I stated at the end of my post, that notion of mine is just an independent
notion >completely to itself, and relative only to that moment. There is no
position being >taken.� Please do not worry for me.
>From our school, I am constant reminded, "Attach to any word is an
attachment."
How about attachments to sutras? Or attachments to words in sutras?
(Translated words!) What does you school have to say about that?
>Good to hear from you.
I'm glad to see you continue to post, but I would like to see more postings
from other people, and in general more discussion on this forum. If you and
Dharmastudents and the rest of your comrades continue to dominate the forum
we'll have to change the name from ZEN Forum to the VIPASSANA Forum!
>We are 103F degrees in LA. How is Thailand?
That's hot! About 40C? I saw on the news this morning that Baghdad is 49C!
Wow!
Thailand's fine. It's about 35C. The monsoons are starting. I'm in Delhi,
India right now and probably will be for the next month or so. Monsoons are
starting here and I don't even want to know what the temperature is outside
(35 to 40C). The temperature in my hotel room is about 22C.
>Namaste,
>Donald
Later...Bill!
>Bill Smart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]org > wrote:
>>There is a BIG DIFFERENCE between �dependent� and �linked, related or
connected�.
>>Things that are �linked, related or connected� can exist independently of
each other.
>>Things that are �dependent� cannot.
>>Which is it?
>>Do you know?� Or are your explanations dependent upon your knowledge of
the >>sutras?
>>�Bill!
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