--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> well-meaning hearts and open-minds are usually a lot of nothing and 
a waste of space.>> My experience with well-meaning hearts and open 
minds is that those are the biggest hypocrites on earth, the blight on 
everything that is good in the world, and the weak links in any 
substantial change. The well-meaning hearts and the open minds never 
get it done. Look at the great era of the 1960s.
> All the well-meaning hearts and open minds became the most corrupt
> generation on earth. When the well meaning hearts and open minds 
have to choose between helping others and a gold Rolex or a Lexus, 
what do you think happens?>>>
> Real enlightenment does not need you for verification. It is real. 
There really are people who have never heard of zen and have no 
interest in being enlightened who are enlightened.

I edited your post to hit the points I want to respond to... I hope 
that's ok...
            Waste of Space? That's a pretty harsh tag for another 
human being, especially one with good intentions. You may have been 
fooled by someone you thought was well-meaning and open minded, but if 
they turned out hypocritical, they must not have been sincere.  
Only one with a well-meaning heart and open mind knows the truth from 
within... I'm sure many of these people you speak of began with good 
intentions, but lost their perspective along the way. 
            And what about change?  What are you looking to change? It 
sounds like your expectations of others may be too high. I try to have 
no expectations or pre-conceived notions of others, although many 
times I fail, but seldom am I dissappointed to find another person is 
just a human being, prone to perceptions of form and feeling.  It 
sounds like you are bitter. I can only wish the best for you. 
            And of Enlightenment. I think our concepts may differ. I 
agree that different humans have differing levels of consciousness, 
and many who have never heard of the practice operate in an elevated 
state of awareness. But I speak of Enlightenment as of the Buddha, the 
ultimate state of Nirvana, reached through strict meditation and 
adherance to the Precepts, or a certain mindset. True, Zen does not 
hold a monopoly on it, perhaps the Yogi's with their knowledge of the 
Chakra's have tapped into it. But it is still an ultimate state of 
Being in which we totally desolve our ego and become One with the 
Universe.  The Ultimate Self-Realiztion! Pie in the Sky? Or a good 
Acid Trip?  I have experienced some differing states of conciousness 
through deep meditation, so I believe firmly that should I gain the 
discipline and shed my laziness and return to my practice, I too could 
reach this state, and anyone who tells me otherwise is only trying to 
keep me from doing so. What person could be so mean as to try and keep 
someone from realizing their dream?

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