Good question Mike but it doesn't correspond to me anwer to it but 
yourself have to answer that question.  Go very deeply into it and 
you'll see that your moral values will answer that for you.  

I don't believe in killing.  I support no killing in the world.  Does 
it come this due to moral values?.  I don't think so.  It comes by 
sensitivity. For instance, I became a vegetarian when a was a 
teenager because I couldn't handle or accept the way animals were 
treated when taken to manslaughter. I was the first vegetarian of the 
History of my town. Every body laughed at me and made sometimes 
unpleasant jokes about me being a vegetarian. Do you really think 
that I was guided by the standard morality?.  Certainly not.  They 
were all eat meaters and didn't care about cruelty over animals!. I 
was guided by myself moral values.  

I don't know whether you've had read the biography of Martin Luther 
King Junior. But if you had then you can observe that first Martin at 
the same time of receiving education, he also observes around.  Later 
on he becomes very strong and very solid in his moral values.  Once 
he absorved all that knowledge, information, observation, reflection, 
direct experience his own moral values.

Moral values are just a pure guide.  It's the same with the precepts 
or mindfullness Trainings from TNH.  Are not things to be followed 
literally but to be developed by oneself sensitivity and open mind.  

Thanks for posting
Mayka


  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Mayka,
> 
> I think we might have a misunderstanding here. My point is that how 
do we reconcile two opposing moral values when both sides believe 
their view is morally correct and the other side's is immoral? In my 
mind, moral values are culturally relative and there is no absolute 
morally correct position. For example, is killing a healthy newborn 
child moral or immoral? Mike.
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Mayka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 23:18:51
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
> 
> 
> Hello Mike;
> 
> What are you doing?
> 
> Moral Values are not exactly the same as moralistic values.  It 
seems 
> to me that the only who understood that were the gays from Yale 
> University!. A shame they're not on this website to ask them for a 
> little support here.
> 
> What you're describing are sick moralistic values.  Did I not say 
> before that moral is a double razor?. 
> 
> In the mind clean and pure as an innocent childlike, moral values 
are 
> also clean.  In a more  poluted mind moral values are sick. 
> 
> Mayka
> 
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@ ...> 
wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mayaka,
> > 
> > If, as you say, all these people have moral values then why is 
> there so much suffering and strife in the world? I would say 
exactly 
> because people have moral values, or rather, opposing moral values. 
> For example, on issues such as abortion, drug use, age of consent, 
> homosexuality etc who determines what is morally correct? Corrupt, 
> rich, white, hypocritical, male politicians do. We need laws, but 
> laws shouldn't reflect the moral values of only a very small group 
in 
> society who also have vested interests. Mike. 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ----- Original Message ----
> > From: Mayka <flordeloto@ ...>
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > Sent: Thursday, 9 October, 2008 16:51:30
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
> > 
> > 
> > I also define moral as a code of conduct.  It was that explained 
in 
> a 
> > post to Jack Master.  There must have been an linguistic error 
here 
> > from my side.  And so I'll try again to explain it and be a 
little 
> > bit more extensive. What you are explaining here about morality 
is 
> > something moralistic. 
> > 
> > Moral is a kind of a double razor and depends how this is used 
can 
> > have the effect of moralistic with narrow mind implications based 
> in 
> > a code of conduct followed strictly to the rule but lacking of 
real 
> > insight by the person who follows it and not just that the person 
> who 
> > is a moralistic usually tries to impose his/her owns views to 
> > others.  In this case the moral that comes from a moralistic 
person 
> > is boring.
> > 
> > But there is a moral with a personal code set of conduct or 
> > principles, coming from within oneself experience. It's a moral 
> > developed by oneself alone and that not necesseraly goes with the 
> > morality of others or society. 
> > 
> > A person with no moral values is a dangerous person.  The Dalai 
> Lama 
> > has his moral values.  Gandhi had his moral values.  Thich Nhat 
> Hanh 
> > has his moral values.  Martin Luther King Junior had his moral 
> > values...All peacemakers of the world have had and have their own 
> > moral values.  A person without moral values is a person of not 
> being 
> > trusted.
> > 
> > Thanks for posting
> > Mayka 
> > 
> > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com, <BillSmart@ ..> wrote:
> > >
> > > Makya,
> > > 
> > > My view of morals is the same as Margie's.  I define 'morals' 
as 
> a 
> > code of
> > > conduct.  This code can be very complex - as in Islamic Sharia 
> Law 
> > or the
> > > Jewish Talmud; or can be fairly short as in the Old Testament's 
10
> > > Commandments or the Buddhist 5 Precepts; or can be very simple 
as 
> > in Jesus'
> > > teaching to 'Love one another'.  More important to this 
> discussion 
> > is
> > > whether morals are thought to be absolute or relative.
> > > 
> > > Most religions (all?) believe the discrimination between right 
> and 
> > wrong and
> > > therefore codes of conduct are ABSOLUTE.  The code or list from 
> > which the
> > > 'correct' action can be derived should apply to ALL situations 
> and 
> > most
> > > importantly to ALL people.  What's right or wrong in all 
> situations 
> > and for
> > > all people.  This makes it easy to judge the conduct of both 
> > yourself and
> > > others.  Since there are a lot of situations and a lot of 
people, 
> > most
> > > religion's codes of conduct are very complex.
> > > 
> > > Zen's perspective on the discrimination between right and wrong 
> and
> > > therefore the selection of a 'correct' action is RELATIVE. 
> > The 'correct'
> > > action depends the situation, and most importantly is 
determined 
> by 
> > each
> > > individual for themselves.  What's right for you in a certain 
> > situation
> > > might not be right in a different situation.  What's right for 
> you 
> > in a
> > > certain situation might not be right for someone else in the 
same 
> > situation.
> > > This makes it unnecessary to judge (after-the-fact) your own 
> > conduct since
> > > your actions were completely determined by the situation at the 
> > time of
> > > execution;  and it is impossible (or at least useless) to try 
to 
> > judge the
> > > conduct of others.  This also means that zen cannot ascribe to 
> any 
> > formal
> > > code of conduct or morals.
> > > 
> > > Hope this helps...Bill! 
> > > 
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com [mailto:Zen_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> ps.com] 
> > On Behalf
> > > Of roloro1557
> > > Sent: Thursday, October 09, 2008 9:44 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ps.com
> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Aging and Zen
> > > 
> > > Mayka-
> > > 
> > > Morals are just a set of arbitrary rules imposed by society, 
> > culture,
> > > religion, etc. They are meaningless. They are empty concepts. 
And 
> > they
> > > differ hugely from culture to culture. This creates nothing but
> > > endless arguments about whose morals are right and whose are 
> wrong. 
> > > 
> > > Real morality is just doing what you know is right, it really 
is 
> > that
> > > simple.
> > > 
> > > Margie (roloro1557)
> > >
> >
>



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