Kristy, You ask a good question, and of course I don’t have good answers to really good questions.
>From my experience in zen I think any being that has SOME form of sensory >awareness – a sentient being – has Buddha Nature. The West (and I think the >East also) divides the senses into 5 senses – sight, hearing, touch, smell and >taste. Of course we in the West especially divide EVERYTHING into fragments. >That’s a big part of Western rationalization, especially of science. We think >that if we break things down into pieces, and the pieces become simple enough >that we can ‘understand’ the pieces, we will then be able to ‘understand’ the >whole. Back to the senses… From my experience in zen I think the division of senses into sight, hearing, etc…, is a meaningless exercise, because when you are only aware of sensory experience (Buddha Nature) there is no differentiation between sight, hearing, etc… , no duality. It’s all Just THIS! So, I think people (beings) that are blind or deaf or both still can experience ONLY awareness (Buddha Nature), and in fact (this is just wild SPECUALTION on my part) MAYBE can become only aware of sensory experience (Buddha Nature) more easily than someone who has all their senses. I’ve also thought this about people who have very low intelligence – like an IQ of 40 or lower. Surely we can’t say they do not also have Buddha Nature, or that they because they aren’t very smart, will never be able to experience Buddha Nature. I just don’t think it works like this. That very fact leads me to conclude that intelligence is not a factor when it comes to experiencing Buddha Nature. And then this could be extended to non-humans – to animals. Do animals (like a dog) have Buddha Nature? I think I’ve heard about someone asking that before ;>). Dogs are sentient beings, so why not? Yet their intelligence is nothing compared to a human. And how about plants? Of course what I’m doing here is dividing the Whole into an increasingly larger number of groups. That’s discrimination. That’s rationalization. That’s creating dualisms. That’s the one thing that our discriminating mind does, and that’s the main thing that takes us AWAY from realizing the Whole, the One, Buddha Nature. And it is in that sense that I believe zen is anti-intellect, or at least intellect-neutral. It is still my opinion at least that the intellect plays absolutely NO PART in discovering Buddha Nature, and if it does it’s usually a detrimental role, not a helping role, and certainly not an essential role. …Bill! From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kristy McClain Sent: Tuesday, October 05, 2010 7:50 PM To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind Bill, Well, I am going to assume by this that you mean what we experience with our physical senses. (Eye, ear, smell, taste, touch). So from that view, a Hellen Keller or an autistic child or such cannot , by definition, practice zen as well as you? Or are you saying that we each have a unique awareness based on our sensory perception? Also, why spend time debating issues here? Is that not an illusion as well-- existing as a distraction from a purer awareness;) Kristy --- On Sun, 10/3/10, Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org> wrote: From: Bill! <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Subject: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, October 3, 2010, 10:38 PM Good Morning Kristy, No, I didn't mean to suggest that qualities such as compassion, wisdom and equanimity arise from sensory awareness. Such concepts as these arise from your dualistic, rational mind. This is the mind on which DP is unclear and is worried about loosing. This mind is the source of all illusions, the most fundamental of which is the illusion of 'self'; but these illusions also include all concepts (definitions/names) and judgements. The zen I practice consists ONLY of awareness of sensory experience. Nothing more. I call this 'Just THIS!'. It could also be called 'Buddha Mind' or 'the cypress tree in the garden' or (in my opinion the best of all) 'Mu!'. EVERYTHING ELSE you may conceive of such as self/other, compassion/selfishness, wisdom/ignorance, good/bad, etc..., are illusory. What I am suggesting is Just THIS! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com <http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> , Kristy McClain <healthypl...@...> wrote: > > Good Morning Bill, (well--its morning where I am), >  > Okay, this is one of the hairs I split with you about  what zen is or > isn't. I agree that our  sensory experiences are key, and it is the > mindful awareness of same which serve as a foundation, but compassion, > wisdom , equanimity are also part of my practice. >  > Are you suggesting that these other qualities arise from sensory > awareness? >  > Kristy > > > --- On Sun, 10/3/10, billsm...@... <billsm...@...> wrote: > > > From: billsm...@... <billsm...@...> > Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > Date: Sunday, October 3, 2010, 4:15 AM > > >  > > > > > > DP, >  > In my opinion zen practice is not at all dependent upon cognitive abilities. > In fact the usual beginning training is all geared to lead you to the point > where you stop your cognitive processes. >  > Zen practice is only dependent upon sensory awareness, only experiencing â€" > not rationalizing the experience. >  > …Bill! >  > > > > From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> ] > On Behalf Of DP > Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 3:24 AM > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Unclear on what is mind >  >  > > > > My concern then is the idea of losing the mind, either through senility or > dementia or mental illness. If we are stripped of our cognitive abilities, > then where is the mind, and how can we still practise? > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > <http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> , > "cid830" <summitjags@> wrote: > > > > DP, > > > > I think the concept of mind is the basis of Buddhism. From my perspective > > in practise, the mind is key to ultimate nirvana and the obstruction to > > getting there. It is the cause of our suffering and the only way to relieve > > that suffering. It is the reason we seek out religions to answer our > > questions of who we are, and the reason we still doubt no matter how much > > we want to believe. Through our mind we will find our Ultimate Widom, but > > we have to dissolve our ego and attachments, everything we have learned to > > distinguish us as individuals, and of those things the mind doesn't easily > > let go! > > > > Master Bill is right, this is the Zen Forum. And Buddhism can be separate > > from zen, that is up for discussion. Many things can be related to zen. If > > you would like to discuss your views on religion with compassionate > > individuals, I'm sure you can find a friendly place here. And we'll find a > > way to relate them to zen. > > > > Thank you DP, and thank you Master Bill, > > > > it's good to be back. > > > > Chris D > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > <http://us.mc552.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com> > > , "DP" <wookielifeday@> wrote: > > > > > > Part of my fear of death is not so much of death but of senility or loss > > > of memory. In western terms, that's what I think of as mind. But I have > > > to admit, I dont know if I fully understand the Buddhist concept of mind. > > > Can anybody help with this? > > > > > > > > > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5498 (20101002) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/> > > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature > database 5498 (20101002) __________ > > The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. > > http://www.eset.com <http://www.eset.com/> > __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 5508 (20101006) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com
