--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusub...@...> wrote:
>
> DP,
> 
> I'll limit myself to answering some of the more pertinent points. You say it 
> would be frightening if someone with these fundemental beliefs was ever 
> nominated. But they have been (ie, Reagan, as already mentioned) and also 
> Bush 
> advocates for the inclusion of creationism in public schools. Bush snr. has 
> even 
> been quoted as saying that atheists should be denied citizenship! You also 
> say 
> that people who think religion should be completely removed from politics are 
> just "trolling". Doesn't that make the framers of the US Constitution the 
> ultimate "trolls" with their insistence on the separation of powers?
> 
> Mike
> 
> 

A rather bizarre comparison.i've made clear that 
1) this is a political forum that I'm talking about. A single forum.
2) There is a specific subsection devoted to religion.
3.) It has been dominated by people who have nothing better to do than 
criticize religion. that's what I mean by trolling. It's disrespectful. Nothing 
to do with with separation of church and state. (Not "separation of powers," 
which refers to executive and judicial.)


As for your comments on Reagan, etc, by all means hold them up to ridicule. But 
don't for a second tell me that this is the sum total of religion, nor the only 
intersection of religion and politics.
Jimmy Carter, the most prolific churchgoing president of the past 40 years, 
shared none of these beliefs.
>  
> 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: DP <wookielife...@...>
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 21:26:04
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
> 
>   
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> >
> > DP,
> > 
> > Thanks for the correction, but the point still stands as the debate 
> > included 
> > people who were ultimately arguing for the presidency of the US. When you 
> > say 
> > they were "widely ridiculed" in the press, by whom - Comedy Central, Bill 
> > O'Reilly, Scarborough, Sean Hannity, Ann Coulter etc?
> 
> Well, where did you see it? I know the Daily Show mocked it almost 
> immediately.
> As far as I know, none of the above conservative commentators disbelieve 
> evolution. They are not wont to criticize other Republicans - but that has 
> nothing to do with religion and everything to do with politics. (The 
> conservatives *were* quick to criticize Obama' religious beliefs, BTW)
> 
> According to many polls, 
> > half the population of the US believe the Earth is less than 10,000 
> > years old. 
> >
> > Wouldn't the readership/viewers be pretty pissed if they felt they were 
> > being 
> 
> > "ridiculed"? Also, the moderator in the debate didn't even ask a 
> > follow up 
> > question to those (is 'morons' too strong?) candidates. As for having 
> > their 
> > finger on the button, a person who denies evolution because 
> > they believe in 
> >the 
> >
> > literal word of the Bible is going to strongly believe in Armagedeon (sp?) 
> > as 
> > the end of the world (didn't Reagan push for the 'star wars' missile 
> > defence 
> > because he believed that's where the Book of Revelation said the final war 
> > between good and evil would be fought out?). Surely the danger in world 
> >leaders 
> >
> > who believe in the literal wording of their holy books doesn't need to 
> > be 
> > spelled out?     
> > 
> > Mike
> > 
> Which would be absolutely terrifying if any of them actually were nominated. 
> I'm not saying that anyone should get a "free pass" for their beliefs. What I 
> am 
> saying is that for many so-called liberals and free thinkers the opposite is 
> true - anything remotely religious is automatically lumped in with the most 
> extremist beliefs....
> 
> These were my only points. The forum that I was on had a section specifically 
> delegated for discusion of religion. And while I'm open to criticism of 
> religion, it was overrun by people who actively wanted to remove religion 
> from 
> politics. In other words, trolling. It would be like a forum on stamp 
> collecting 
> bring dominated by anti-stamp people. 
> 
> 
> My other point was that completely eliminating religion from politics i not 
> only 
> impossible but unwise, because there are people whose political convictions 
> to 
> make the world better were aided by their religiou beliefs.
> 
> > 
> > 
> > ________________________________
> > From: DP <wookielifeday@>
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wed, 6 October, 2010 7:46:22
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
> > 
> >   
> > Not quite. It was not the "last presidential debate," it was a debate among 
> > those competing for the Republican candidacy. And no, "nothing" did not 
> > happen; 
> >
> > they were widely ridiculed in the media, and none of them won the candidacy 
> > in 
> 
> > the end. So no, they most certainly did not get a free pass. (In any case, 
> > I'm 
> 
> > not sure what evolution has to do with "having their finger on the button."
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Anthony,
> > > 
> > > A couple of points. One religion criticising another religion is not the 
> >point 
> >
> > 
> > > I'm making about religion having a free pass. Take politics, for example. 
> > > In 
> 
> > >the 
> > >
> > > last presidential debate 4 candidates put up their hands to swear that 
> > > they 
> > > didn't believe in evolution. Was there a gasp of disbelief from the 
> > > questioner/audience? Laughter? A roll of the eyes? Nothing. Not even a 
> > > follow 
> >
> > >up 
> > >
> > > question. And these people potentially could have their finger on the 
> > > button. 
> >
> > > Now imaine if they said they believed in UFOs or Zeus or a flat earth 
> > > etc. 
> >Now 
> >
> > 
> > > that's what I call a free pass. 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Mike
> > >  
> > > Ps, I like Don Quixote. Probably the best example of a man of Zen in 
> > >literature.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@>
> > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tue, 5 October, 2010 7:43:43
> > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > >church.
> > > 
> > >   
> > > Mike,
> > > 
> > > I don't see the 'free pass'. You find Islam criticising Christianity, and 
> >vice 
> >
> > 
> > > versa, and Christianity reviling Buddhism and vice versa. Many other 
> >instances. 
> >
> > >
> > > The reason you are afraid to say something against Christianity is 
> > > because 
> >you 
> >
> > 
> > > live in a strong Christain influenced environment. Once you say 
> > > something, 
> >you 
> >
> > 
> > > will see a lot of Don Quixotes rushing toward you.
> > > 
> > > Anthony
> > > 
> > > --- On Mon, 4/10/10, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@>
> > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > > church.
> > > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Date: Monday, 4 October, 2010, 11:38 PM
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >Mayka,
> > > >
> > > >It goes waaaaaaaaay beyond mere "disappontment" in any established 
> > > >religious 
> >
> > > >institutions. I really don't understand why religion gets a "free pass" 
> > > >from 
> >
> > > >criticism. We attack the oil industry for polluting the environment; 
> > > >goverment/politicians for corruption and other socially unacceptable 
> > >behaviours 
> > >
> > > >etc. What is it about religion that can claim "I'm offended" as a valid 
> > >argument 
> > >
> > > >against scrutiny and even ridicule? If I said the world was flat you'd 
> > >probably 
> > >
> > > >think I was mentally sick. But deny evolution (despite the overwhelming 
> > > >scientific eveidence) and that's ok because I claim to have 'faith' in a 
> > > >bronze-age myth. And I'm not even going to begin with the 
> >institutionalised 
> >
> > > >cover-up of child rape by the Catholic church..
> > > >
> > > >Mike
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > ________________________________
> > > From: Maria Lopez <flordeloto@>
> > > >To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > >Sent: Mon, 4 October, 2010 22:51:51
> > > >Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your 
> > > church.
> > > >
> > > >  
> > > >Hi Mike and Everyone!
> > > > 
> > > >If everytime one has a dissapointment in any established religious 
> >institution 
> >
> > >
> > > >whether that dissapointment was in Christian, 
> > > >Muslim, Jew, 
> >Buddhist, Zen 
> >
> > > >Buddhist, etc, etc institutions:  and  
> > > >afterwards acts as a 
> >destructor 
> >
> > >towards 
> > >
> > > >the institution from which dissapointment took place, then it doesn't 
> > > >sound 
> >a 
> >
> > 
> > > >very wise way of doing towards oneself.  I certainly include 
> > > >myself in 
> >this 
> >
> > > >unwise way of doing as I've recently experienced a great dissapointment 
> > > >in 
> >the 
> >
> > >
> > > >TNH institutions which lead me to criticism of them. Though never 
> > >as irrespetuos 
> > >
> > > >or destructive as many atheists show themselves ugly 
> > > >behaviour in 
> >front of 
> >
> > > >Christianity.  This harmful way of doing doesn't affect the 
> > > >instituions 
> > > >established but just to the ones who carries away such violent 
> > > >shows. 
> > > > 
> > > > When I look deeply into myself, I realice that it was 
> > > >me all the way 
> >alone 
> >
> > >who 
> > >
> > > >built up a pedestal to that institution.  It was me who caused 
> > > >herself 
> >the 
> >
> > > >dissapointment for building a pedestal of "holiness, peace....to the 
> > > >institution".  They weren't the ones!!!. Having seeing 
> > > >this within 
> >myself I 
> >
> > >am 
> > >
> > > >now grateful having found that institution from which I was introduced 
> > > >in 
> >the 
> >
> > 
> > > >walk of zen buddhism.
> > > > 
> > > >  I was ever dissapointed in any Christian institutions because 
> > > >I never 
> >built 
> >
> > >up 
> > >
> > > >a pedestal to the instituion!.  And so my experience was always 
> > > >healthy 
> >and 
> >
> > > >positive.  It was positive because I never put that instituion 
> > > >in a 
> > >pedestal.  I 
> > >
> > > >saw it for what it was.  And so I could get all the benefit from 
> > > >it and 
> >never 
> >
> > >
> > > >the dissapointment and the anger and frustation that comes with it.
> > > > 
> > > >Mayka
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- On Sun, 3/10/10, mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >>From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@>
> > > >>Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Don't pray in my school and I won't think in 
> > > >>your 
> > > >church.
> > > >>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > >>Date: Sunday, 3 October, 2010, 11:33
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>  
> > > >>Kristy,
> > > >>
> > > >>You wrote:  "If you have faith, there is a whole sphere they 
> > > >>are 
> >ignorant 
> >
> > > >>about."  
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >>However, this isn't really the whole story. Many atheists were once 
> >believers 
> >
> > >
> > > >>who have seen thru 'faith' and have rejected it for what it is. 
> > > >>Moreover, I 
> >
> > >am 
> > >
> > > >>ignorant of what it is to be a neo-nazis, but have no trouble 
> > > >>rejecting 
> 
> > >their 
> > >
> > > >>beliefs as not just harmful, but wrong.
> > > >>
> > > >>Mike
> > > >>
> > > >> 
> > > >
> > >
> >
>




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