This 'non-ordinary' state you experienced may or may not be the same as what
is referred to as 'Buddha Nature' in zen.


Buddha Nature has existed forever, or at least as long as sentient beings
have existed.  It certainly existed long before Gautama Buddha experienced
it under the Bodhi Tree.  A spontaneous, non-Buddhist, non-zen, teacher-less
experience of Buddha Nature is certainly very possible.


In the end it really doesn't matter.   It was your experience.  It is now a
basis of faith for you.  That's all good.


Remember and celebrate it.




From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2010 2:32 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Questions, questions, question




I hear you, understand you and appreciate the clear way in which you explain
the matter.

I would not have made the statement had I not out of the blue, whilst
leading a normal and ordinary life, without any zazen or meditation or
spiritual practices or medications or thoughts of enlightenment, experienced
a non-ordinary state that lasted six days. 

This experience, which I prefer not to discuss, was never repeated, and is
the basis of any 'faith' I may possess in the potential for realization of
Buddha nature. 



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, <billsm...@...> wrote:
> I want to expand a little on one of my answers below to avoid
> misunderstanding.

> The posting exchange was:

> [Anthony] But we can try to use our finger to point to the Moon.

> [Ed] In the final analysis one must just have faith in the reality of
'Buddha mind', yes?

> [Bill!] Yes!


> My answer Yes!, that you do have to have faith in Buddha Mind is meant for
> the period BEFORE you experience Buddha Mind/Nature for yourself. AFTER
> that it is experience, not faith.
> I often use the word 'zen' as short for 'zen practice', and when I do I
> don't distinguish between the phases of zen practice. There are 2 distinct
> phases: one before experiencing Buddha Nature and one after. There is also
> an 'transition phase', especially in Rinzai (See, I spelled it right this
> time!) Zen Buddhism koan study, where the experience of Buddha Nature is
> often so sudden that it takes a period of follow-on training to
> reconcile and integrate that experience into your everyday life.
> It is not unheard of to divide zen practice into phases like this. Take
> example the 10 (or 8) Ox Herding phases. These are an excellent depiction
> of the phases one may go through from first wanting a change in your life
> and having FAITH that you can somehow do that (#1 Seeking the Ox), to full
> enlightenment, complete integration (#10 Entering the Marketplace With
> Hanging Loose) - no faith involved here.
> You can find this set all over the web. One such place is at
> http://www.terebess.hu/english/oxherding.html  
> .Bill! 

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