I do not come to the forum expecting it to be a place just for practicing zen 
folk, and I am happy to apologize to Ed today. He has the upset because of my 
action, so it works well for me to respond in the way he is asking.  I 
personally think, based on my own somewhat argumentative marriage, that the 
upset person is usually expressing some real chance to improve the 
relationship, and the job of the relationship is to do what is needed to calm 
every one down and figure out what the chance to make things better is. 

I do not expect much from people and I do not mind apologizing. I am not saying 
"I was in error." but "oh, you were upset by my actions, sorry, let me try to 
do it differently next time." 

Not to say that the goal isn't to upset people, but to do what is needed 
without gratuitous upset. Why be excessive?  There is plenty of upset without 
adding to it. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On Jan 12, 2011, at 1:47, Maria Lopez <flordel...@btinternet.com> wrote:

> 
> 
> Chris.
> 
> It´s kind of you to apologise to ED if you believe having done something 
> incorrect.  The only thing here is that you didn´t.  The example of the peach 
> has as much value as the example of the rice as both come from the direct 
> experience of the practise from two different people.. This is called the 
> fruits of the practice.
> 
>  Unless Mr ED and similars get into the real practise of zen, their opinions 
> are not relevant and not certainly relable at present as far as zen concerns. 
>  Mr ED opinions in zen only will be reliable the day that he´ll be talking 
> about any subject he has experienced by himself and not because somebody else 
> has said that.
> 
> Best
> Mayka
> 
> --- On Tue, 11/1/11, Chris Austin-Lane <ch...@austin-lane.net> wrote:
> 
> From: Chris Austin-Lane <ch...@austin-lane.net>
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Not understanding mindfulness
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 11 January, 2011, 16:18
> 
> I apologize if I have violated the current cultural mores, Ed.  Understanding 
> group norms has always been a thing I stumble over, I can use all the hints I 
> can get.  I do not mean to tell you Ed to sit zazen.  I simply mean that 
> thinking about things and experiencing things are different.  Even 
> experiencing thinking is different from thinking about thinking.  I may have 
> been hoping to let the lurkers know my observation that sittting zazen does 
> make the shift in attention easier, so I notice the experiencing before it is 
> covered up in thinking easier when I've sat recently).  
> 
> 
> I certainly enjoy the to and fro of verbal interchanges.  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> --Chris
> 
> PS  The eat the peach/scrutinize the picture of the peach is a reference to a 
> Dogen essay, where the title is actual something more along the lines of a 
> bowl of rice or a picture of a bowl of rice, not a peach.  
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 8:07 AM, ED <seacrofter...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 
> Scrutinizing the peach and biting into it are not mutually exclusive choices 
> for different points in time.
> The 'choice' one makes for any moment in time is whatever appears to oneself 
> to be the most appropriate choice for that moment.
> 
> Almost anyone here could give others repetitious advice on how to run their 
> lives, and their intentions, like those of fundamentalist religionists, would 
> no doubt be motivated by good intentions; but, guided by current cultural 
> mores, at least in English-speaking countries, most abstain from such 
> well-intentioned speech.
> 
>  
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez <flordel...@...> wrote:
> >
> > Indeed Chris.  We always have a choice. 
> 
>  
> 
>  
> > --- On Sun, 9/1/11, Chris Austin-Lane ch...@... wrote:
> > 
> > To eat the peach or make do with the picture of a lovely peach. It is a 
> > daily choice we face.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> > On Jan 8, 2011 11:18 PM, "Maria Lopez" flordel...@... wrote:
> > 
> > Much, much short cut to  eat the peach rather than to have the poetry and 
> > much more often the speculation by the ones who read a lot about  what look 
> > like the taste of the peach but never tried, tasted or even see a peach in 
> > their life.  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

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