Hi Anthony, JM / All, I was just replying to your note when I read JM's comments. I thought I might add some thoughts about karma /rebirth. As for killing my lover? Not a chance! Is there a difference? My natural inclination is , "yes, but thinking about Bill's initial question as to "why", then re-examining JM's thoughts on karma /re-birth and "direct experience", maybe there is more to it. It kinda goes back to my comments a while back on the #1 danger on the spiritual path---namely "certainty" that one's own path is the right path. I want to defuse my comments initially by saying directly that I honor JM and everyone who holds a belief in karma /re-birth. Though I do not believe "direct experience" of this is authentic. One's belief is real, but I doubt anyone here has died and been re-born in their current mortality. Actually the value of "doubt" is the focus of this post, as it related to spiritual practice. Some here might know the book, "Confessions of a Buddhist Atheist"? The author was a monk in the Korean zen tradition, I think. Its a discussion on cultivating "The Great Doubt", as a means to suspend certainty--and I would add--judgement, thereby allowing a space for the opportunity for greater clarity or 'clear mind" to enter. As I understand it, this zen practice has a three-tier approach: Great Faith ~ Great Doubt ~ Great Courage. So, faith allows one to embrace the doubt, which is possible due to the foundation of "great courage". Allowing this process to flow can lead to "waking up" to an awareness not possible without embracing the doubt. To re-state, faith and doubt co-exist as one moves thru this practice--again supported by courage. I would agree that this is hard. It is easier to stay with beliefs and practices that one has adopted as being valid or right. Its easier to be skeptical of other realizations or perceptions. One thing that has troubled me here is the tendency to label things in black or white. Its not all science. its not all karma. Its a willingness to be vulnerable and open, to then awaken to a deeper reality, and not project one's own bias , and more poignantly-- one's fears on another or self. Rigidity, beit in science, spiritality or anything is a recipe for retreat, and cooresponding fears are often rooted in our insecurities and shadows. Embracing doubt can provide a means to soothe one's heart in acknowledging that we don't always know the right answer. Or at least thats true for myself. Coming back to killing my lover or a cockroach, and how it relates to karma /re-birth.. As I said before, I think that a belief in karma represents a fear of death, or the unknown. Its based in fear. But its more than that. I agree with the book when he states that having some sort of structural meta-physical alliance that provides a moral "book-keeper", that will, in due time, settle the accounts by determing my ultimate outcome is--at best implausible. And also a bit sad, if one assumes they deserve punishment, or reward by something outside themselves. BUT-- if such a situation exists, how can I know that the cockroach I stepped on now is not a proxy for my lover in my past life? Theoretically then-- killing is killing. But since I doubt this belief, I'll love my husband in the flesh.. and dispose of the roach. I will add that I do believe that I am accountable for my actions. I believe the consequences will confront me here in this life. But I'm open to learning;) Be well. Kristy
--- On Tue, 1/18/11, Anthony Wu <[email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Wu <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] the death of the prince, vegetarianism?(to Chris/Kristy/list) To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, January 18, 2011, 4:00 PM Kristy, I have to turn around again. If you kill your lover, you are glad to be rid of a nagging partner (this applies to either male or female one). When you step on a cockroach, you regret making your shoe sole dirty. Isn't it a big difference? Don't even think I mean to spoil your game. Remember JM keeps saying words are unimportant. Only experiece matters. I wish you a very nice one. Anthony Oh my God.. Guys.. I am putting the "Do Not Disturb" sign out for a few days. We are TRYING to finally have a short belated honeymoon. I get the "no confidence" vote from Anthony. To Bill.. I experienced "just this" today. zen-in-motion. We arrived pre-dawn on the top of a volcano.. and cycled the way down. Amazingly--words can't describe. I guess like, "just this";) btw-- Anthony.. no photos or stories to share. k --- On Mon, 1/17/11, Anthony Wu <[email protected]> wrote: From: Anthony Wu <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] the death of the prince, vegetarianism?(to Chris/Kristy/list) To: [email protected] Date: Monday, January 17, 2011, 5:13 PM Bill, Correction: there is no difference between killing your lover and eliminating vermins. Go, go, go kill and loot. Anthony --- On Tue, 18/1/11, Bill! <[email protected]> wrote: From: Bill! <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [Zen] the death of the prince, vegetarianism?(to Chris/Kristy/list) To: [email protected] Date: Tuesday, 18 January, 2011, 7:57 AM How so? Please explain that to me...Bill! --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> wrote: > > > Bill, >  > What you kill matters. There is a big difference between eliminating germs > and killing your zen master. >  > Anthony >  > > --- On Sun, 16/1/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] the death of the prince, vegetarianism?(to > Chris/Kristy/list) > To: [email protected] > Date: Sunday, 16 January, 2011, 8:06 AM > > >  > > > > Krity's right. All life is sustained by other life. It's just a big cycle of > transformation we call life and death. > > I have no quarrels with anyone choosing to be a vegetarian, but if they think > they're doing that because that helps them live a life that does not > harm/kill other life they are just engaging in wishful thinking. Everything > we do, even just our presence contributes to the death of other life. Even > our skin contains acid which kills bacteria. > > Of course that doesn't give us an excuse to run out and kill everything we > see - but to live is to kill. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@> wrote: > > > > Hi Mel, > >  > > As to the vegetarian-thing. I understand the teaching as a practice > > of non-harming all living beings. But I heard Andrew Weil say a few > > years ago, that to survive, we have to end the life of something, beit > > a carrot or a cow. He's a botanist, you know;) > >  > > Wrapping up my Japanese holiday, and heading back via Hawaii. (Need > > to warm up). Plus, my golf-obsessed 4 yo nephew has put in his birthday > > request -- a sand wedge --his size. > >  > > Good weekend to all... > >  > > Thanks to Mel, Steve and Chris, for the interesting thread on the > > Gospel of Thomas. I assume that is part of the Gnostics? > >  > > Kristy > >  > > > > > > --- On Sat, 1/15/11, Mel <gunnar19632000@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Mel <gunnar19632000@> > > Subject: [Zen] the death of the prince, vegetarianism?(to Chris/Kristy/list) > > To: [email protected] > > Date: Saturday, January 15, 2011, 6:12 AM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 15/1/11, ChrisAustinLane <chris@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jan 14, 2011, at 7:01, Kristy McClain <healthyplay1@> wrote: > > > > > Mel pondered if my suggestion that Buddha's enlightment was impermanent, > > > when I offered that even Buddha likely had "bad hair days". > > > > I missed that thread, but it is an interesting question. What if Buddha had > > gotten alzheimer's? being awake is a dynamic process not a static thing. > > ---------------------------------------------------------- > > MEL: Hi Kristy and Chris. Kristy your reply was quite inspiring. You've put > > it better than I did(I have an excuse...you're the one with the > > education..*sighs/laughter*) > >  > > Chris, I don't know about azheimer's but I assume that health conditions in > > those days might have been pretty bad. However, I did get from the late > > Deshimaru-sensei's writings that the Buddha apparently died from eating > > some pork-meat. Wild boar perhaps?...which leads to this > > (conservative/mainstream) so-called Buddhist belief(looks more like an > > issue to me) about the need to abstain from meat. According to > > Deshimaru-sensei, the Buddha preached none of this(How about fish?) > >  > > Don't get me wrong, because I personally love my vegies, fruit, tofu, beans > > and so on...but I'm not quite clear on this 'vegetarian' thingy > >  > > Be well > > Mel > >  > >  > > >
