TSF, That's a very good Freudian slip! At-One-Ness: being one with God. That is atonement, or at least the object/result of aotnement (cleansing of sin) in the Christian religion.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], yonyonson@... wrote: > > Bill!, > > just realized that "at-one-ment" spells "atonement" hahaha is that a > freudian slip in which u actually do agree with karma?? > > TaoSheiFei > > > On Wed, Jan 11, 2012 at 11:32 PM, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > ** > > > > > > TaoSheiFei, > > > > You asked: > > > > >WHO does karma effect? > > > > Karma affects you (illusory self). When the illusory self disappears > > ("at-one-ment", Mu, Just THIS!) karma also disappears. > > > > No this/that, here/there, > > No high/low, good/bad, no self, > > No karma, Just THIS! > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], yonyonson@ wrote: > > > > > > Why isn't karma, us, us ,us? r u a unique soul? even so, how could > > > something as complex as karma be attributed to a single soul? are there > > > heirarchies of karmic levels? how deep do you want to really go beyond > > > your own self-limiting beliefs? > > > > > > Bill!, plz correct me, but at a very REAL at-one-ment, this whole > > subj/obj > > > dichotomy, duality, (devil???) is erased into THIS! WHO! && MU? but if > > > you must, study recursive properties of axioms...if u are u, who is > > > realizing u? then if that is u...who is that that is realizing u > > realizing > > > u? ad infinitum tum tum. WHO does karma effect? > > > > > > just a poem sung, plz subtract > > > TaoSheiFei > > > > > > On Tue, Jan 10, 2012 at 9:07 PM, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > ** > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > Karma is you, you, you. > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > *From:* Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > *To:* [email protected] > > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, 11 January 2012, 10:22 > > > > > > > > *Subject:* Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > your > > > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > I am still a little confused as how you think of karma. > > > > > > > > You say 'karma is inside you'. Is karma seperate from you but inside > > you, > > > > or is karma you? > > > > > > > > You say 'karma exists by itself'. Does it exist independent of you, or > > is > > > > karma you? > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > Ãâ > > > > > > > Karma is inside you and functions without an outside agency such as > > God. > > > > It reflects cause and effect. Whether you view it as the same action > > or two > > > > actions, they originate from the same source. Buddhism does not create > > > > karma, (much less a God). It exists by itself. > > > > > Ãâ > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, 10 January 2012, 16:18 > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > your > > > > friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ãâ > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > When I said 'outside agency' I meant 'outside of you' or 'other than > > > > you'. When you say 'karma functions by itself' you are implying that > > karma > > > > exists independently of you; like when you say 'not my will but Yours > > > > (God's) be done' you are implying that God exists independently of > > you. You > > > > are implying that 'karma' and 'God' are 'outside agencies' - outside of > > > > and/or separate from you. > > > > > > > > > > I am saying that both the concept of 'karma' and 'God' and all their > > > > supposed attributes and associated powers/activites are NOT separate > > from > > > > you. That are created by you - by your discriminating mind. They are > > > > illusory. > > > > > > > > > > If you kill, there is killing. If you are killed, you die. If you > > loot, > > > > there is looting. If you are looted, you loose property. The killing > > is not > > > > the cause and the dieing the effect. It is the same action viewed or > > > > described from two perspectives. It is Just THIS! > > > > > > > > > > This is my experience...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > The difference is that karma does not rely on God or any other > > > > 'outside agent'. It functions by itself. On the other hand, if you deny > > > > karma, does that mean whatever you do, whether killing, looting or > > burning, > > > > does not have any effects? You may say you rely on law to take care of > > it. > > > > But that is part of karma, at the human level. Nevertheless, it is more > > > > realistic than reliance on God. if all are illusory, killing and > > looting > > > > will be out of control. In that case, believing in God is better than > > > > believing in nothing. > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 13:00 > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How did > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > How are they different concepts? > > > > > > > > > > > > Both have to do with action/reaction (cause and effect), and both > > > > exist as a concept in your mind. > > > > > > > > > > > > Labeling some actions/reactions or cause/effect as good or bad > > (good > > > > deeds lead to reward or sin leads to punishment; or accumulation of > > [bad] > > > > karma leads to being re-born as a toad) is just packaging. Likewise > > > > attributng the enforcement of actions/reactions or cause/effect to an > > > > outside agency such as karma or God is also just packaging. > > > > > > > > > > > > It all looks the same to me - illusory, dualistic packaging. > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > It is a different message you wrap in the same envelope. > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > Sent: Monday, 9 January 2012, 9:15 > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > did > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > Anthony, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You definition of karma is well stated, but why do you not think > > > > that definition could not also be applied to the Christian concept of > > > > sin/obedience and Hell/Heaven? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > For me it's the same message in a different envelope. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That is not karma, but reward and punishment by God. Karma is > > > > action and reaction by yourself through your own mind (or Buddha > > nature). > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > Sent: Sunday, 8 January 2012, 18:03 > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > did > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > Christians beleive in 'karma' also: if you're 'good' you go to > > > > Heaven and if you're 'bad' you go to Hell...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ItÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > is not at all > > > > > > surprising that you got a funny reaction from people surrounding you > > when > > > > you said you were interested in Buddhism. Try doing the same thing with > > > > Moslems, and you get a funnier response. Even in this forum, which is > > less > > > > hostile to Buddhism, you find different views on it. > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > > > > The key point in Buddhism is karma. But Hinduism also agrees > > to > > > > karma. The difference between the two is the former insists that karma > > is > > > > your own business, nobody else can help you change it. However, in > > > > Hinduism, there are powerful deities who respond to your requests and > > > > assist you. Don't forget we are a zen forum, and there are a view I > > term > > > > chaotic zen, which denies anything on karma, or any laws or rules. > > They say > > > > everything is in chaos. On the other hand, you will also hear all > > kinds of > > > > Buddhist views here. I hope you have fun here. > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > > Anthony > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > > > > > > > From: dan_guzy <dan_guzy@> > > > > > > > > > To: [email protected] > > > > > > > > > Sent: Saturday, 7 January 2012, 16:08 > > > > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] When you began learning about buddhism, How > > did > > > > your friends & family react? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'â⬠> > 'ÃÆ'Ã'ÃââÃÆ'ââââ¬à ¡ÃâìÃÆ'ââ¬Â¦ÃâáÃÆ'Ã'Ãâ 'ÃÆ'ââââ¬Å¡Ã¬Ãâ¦Ã¡ÃÆ'Ã'âââ¬à ¡ÃÆ'ââ¬Å¡Ãâ > > > > > > > > > > > I seem to be having trouble with this. I'm new to buddhism, > > just > > > > recently starting reading up on it the past several months, although > > > > technically I've been exposed to it for many years through a variety > > of tv > > > > shows, movies, etc. My favorite was Kung Fu: The Legend Continues. > > Don't > > > > know why, but the scenes with the shoalin temple and buddhist monks > > were > > > > always my favorite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Although I haven't come right out and said to my family > > (except > > > > for my sister) that I'm learning about Buddhism, they've seen the > > books and > > > > notes I leave to myself pertaining to it. So far, it has not been > > > > encouraging. They kind of give a disgusted look or a groan when they > > see it > > > > that suggests that they are not happy about it. They are catholics. > > I'm an > > > > atheist (which they've known for years). When I finally told my sister > > that > > > > I'd like to visit a temple in town, she got disqusted and said "why? > > You'll > > > > never go with me to my church, but you'll go to a buddhist church?" I > > > > didn't know what to say, so I told her the truth, that I didn't feel > > > > anything for catholicism anymore, and that it didn't feel like the > > right > > > > religion for me. She wasn't pleased. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then today I was having a chat with a co-worker and boss at > > > > work. I get along great with both of them, known them for several > > years. My > > > > co-worker mentioned she and her husband were atheists, so I told her I > > was > > > > too. We both got a kick out of it realizing that we never knew that > > about > > > > each other. Then I mentioned to her that I had been reading up on > > buddhism > > > > lately, and she gave the same kind of groan I've been hearing from my > > > > family. My boss just sort of gave a look of shock and disbelief, > > didn't say > > > > anything. I couple of weeks or so before that, I was discussing various > > > > books with another boss that we like to read, and I mentioned one I'd > > been > > > > reading called the Peaceful Warrior. He asked what it was about so I > > told > > > > him, and when I mentioned it has a buddhist theme to it, he gave a > > funny > > > > look. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What's funny about all of this is that I've always figured > > > > buddhism to be one of the most revered and highly respected forms of > > > > philosophy and religion on earth. Even growing up I felt that way. > > When I > > > > go online to Yahoo Answers R&S forum to ask a question pertaining to > > it, I > > > > haven't had any bad replies over a single question, and if any of you > > have > > > > ever been on there, you know they can be harsh sometimes in that > > section. > > > > So it really threw me for a loop seeing all these crazy reactions from > > > > people I know. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Did any of you get these same reactions from the people you > > knew > > > > when you were first learning about buddhism? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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