Kristopher,
Thanks for your thoughtful reply.
I am happy people like you are participating in the Yahoo! Zen Forum and
willing to share your thoughts and experiences for all our benefit.
Be well...Bill!
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristopher Grey <kris@...> wrote:
>
> A very good classical description, Bill. I have no issues with
> definitions of Japanese terms - they're as good as any. If I had a path
> more similar to yours I might say many of those things.
>
> On 2/1/2012 9:57 PM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > Kristopher,
> >
> > I'll only address the part of your post that you pose a question, even
> > if it might have been only rhetorical:
> >
> > On zazen:
> > For me the only zazen is shikantaza ('just sit' in Japanese or is
> > sometimes called 'clear mind' or 'empty mind'). All other forms of
> > meditation involving koans, visualizations, reflection, watcher
> > watching, silent mantras, etc..., are either tools to bring you to
> > shikantaza, or some other form of mediation - but not zazen.
> >
>
> Yet, you describe taking action to halt/stop/clear/empty/still the mind,
> which would not be "just sitting".
>
> I only note an apparent and amusing (to me anyway) aspect.
>
> To prefer a practice to another is not a hindrance. To attach to one is.
> If the practice is of any use it should reveal at least this this rather
> quickly. Such practices also have many practical benefits, which is
> likely the main reason they are recommended (as awaken or not, at least
> you get some focus, or relaxation, or sense of community, or....).
>
> > This 'halting' is IMO the purpose of all Zen Buddhist teaching
> > techniques including koan study, kinhin, chanting, bowing, samu
> > (chores)and following-the-breath. The 'halting' allows you to glimpse
> > Buddha Nature which has been present but in the background all along,
> > and is temporary and of short duration.
> >
>
> Yet it cannot be, it can only appear so. I simply point out the obvious.
> An interruption, is not really stopping or changing anything. You trip
> over your false-self, and find it's not there.
>
> > The first instance it called 'kensho' in Japanese and can be
> > translated as 'initial ireakthrough. From that point on the practice
> > is to extend and deepen the periods of awareness of Buddha Nature then
> > does not require the 'halting' of all thought, but only the
> > non-attachment to thought.
> >
>
> Along with this (going along with this progressive story) it should
> become increasingly clear that no doing is required. The doing was
> generating the illusion that is now unable to maintain itself. You don't
> end it, it ends this aspect of you that perceives lack.
>
> Again, I am not offering a contrary view, I only point to a
> complimentary/interdependent aspect. Buddha Mind moving in all 10
> directions.
>
> > The way I usually describe it is before the initial breakthrough the
> > self's attachment to thoughts make them completely opaque concealing
> > or at least obscuring Buddha Nature. After the initial breakthrough
> > the practice is to continue to dilute attachments making thoughts more
> > and more transparent and no longer completely obscuring Buddha Nature.
> >
>
> This takes me back to what you said above, that it's "in the
> background". I am noting this is the illusion, that it can only appear
> so (apart/hidden). What obscures Buddha Nature, is also Buddha Nature,
> thus "hidden in plain sight". "Revealed" to be as it has always been.
> When this is obvious, "just sitting" is Buddha Nature (something many
> argue against - still clinging to separation of ordinary from Buddha -
> not realizing dog shit and all else arising in mind is also Buddha Nature).
>
> I suppose all I'm saying is these are stories told in hindsight. Their
> use thus limited. If someone takes another's path, they lengthen their
> own. If we are trained in a certain tradition/practice, we are very
> likely to use that systems words. This is not right/wrong, it's just
> human. If one sits staring at a wall for 30 years and suddenly has an
> experience of Satori, it would be very odd for him to say the practice
> had no effect, yet if the realization is there it's equally odd to say
> it did. Surely the wall that became more than a wall is seen again to be
> the wall. It takes no effort for a wall to become a wall. This should
> bring great laughter and tears.
>
> >
> > Japanese Zen Buddhist do use several terms to describe varying degrees
> > of awakening: 'kensho', 'satori' and 'great satori' but I don't find
> > them very helpful. There more of the 'Buddhist' overlay of zen that I
> > do talk about once in a while. They are not important distinctions to me.
> >
>
> Well, unimportant yes. Still, as limiting as words are - I like the the
> word Kensho for "glimpses" and so called peak experiences, and Satori
> for a realization that "sticks" because it's clear that it's all glimpses.
>
> The whole gradual/sudden thing is empty to me. Both, descriptions of
> apparent aspects. Someone awakening suddenly without any practice, will
> in hindsight see a path was indeed there (or create the story of one in
> this of "past" lifetimes depending on culture and such). Someone who
> perceives a gradual path, will have a sudden shift even if it is not
> dramatic, and see their path differently. Each will tell very different
> stories.
>
> Each a unique expression - but such tales can be captivating for
> seekers - attaching to others words and actions. This I suspect, is why
> it can take decades. To busy doing things to realize being to realize
> that doing is an aspect of being.
>
> It's getting late, I should stick to one liners. The more I say, the
> more to muddle.
>
> K
>
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