Bill, Stories like this are indeed used to show the difficulty (trap almost) in responding to zen-related questions with words. That's why zen teachers when asked 'What is Buddha Nature?' very often respond with what seems to be 'nonsense' statements (like 'dried shit on a stick'), or just sounds (like 'Katz!'), or even just actions (like pinching your nose).
For me this is an indication that zen adepts try very hard NOT to 'explain' Buddha Nature or try to force-fit it into a logical structure. To do so warps it all out of shape and leaves a lot hanging out over the edges. It just doesn't fit. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], William Rintala <brintala@...> wrote: > > Mike's question brought up memories of my earlier readings on Zen. The idea > of > going beyond words and labeling things. The story that went something > like "A > teacher placed a bowl in the center of a groud of monks and asked them to > tell > him what it was. After several erudite philosophical responses one monk got > up > and kicked the bowl." I may be mis-remembering the specifics but it went > something like that. I can understand intellectually what going beyond > words > but getting to that place has proved most difficult.  >  Bill > > > > > Find what makes your heart singâ¦and do it! > > > > > ________________________________ > From: mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> > To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]> > Sent: Sun, September 2, 2012 7:00:58 AM > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" > >  > There's still a bowl? > > > ________________________________ > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:51 > Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" > > >  > A clean bowl is realization...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], mike brown <uerusuboyo@> wrote: > > > > Edgar, > > > > Exactly. > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 12:35 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" > > > > > > à> > Mike, > > > > Yes, the problem with these pithy 'in crowd' Zen sayings is that bowls can > > be > >washed WITHOUT realization just as they can be WITH realization... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > On Sep 2, 2012, at 6:19 AM, mike brown wrote: > > > > à> > > > > > > > >Bill!, > > > > > >A great instruction, and is certainly direct, but Joshu's instructions > > >were > >given to a monk who had probably been practicing meditation for a long time > >and > >was already 'ripe' for awakening to happen. Imagine how useful that > >instruction > >would be to a neophyte coming off the street asking about the search for > >truth > >or something similar. Joshu's instruction is just that - an instruction. > >That's > >why i believe Buddha's skilful means (upaya) is so useful as a teaching > >method. > >On the one side we can have the direct pointing to the Dharma (Zen) and on > >the > >other we can have Therevada Buddhism with it's more step by step > >instructions, > >such as following the Noble eightfold Path. > > > > > > > >The Buddha was very wise to understand that there are many different kinds > > >of > >people/cultures/personalities etc. out there and no one method will work > > for all. I think it should be clear now that "wash you bowls" just isn't > > going > >to work for someone like ED. If you agree, what else could you say that > >might > >help him? > > > > > >Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >________________________________ > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > >To: [email protected] > > >Sent: Sunday, 2 September 2012, 9:48 > > >Subject: [Zen] Re: " dancing with the daffodils" > > > > > > > > >à> > >ED, > > > > > >Mind if Joshu and I jump in? > > > > > >"WASH YOUR BOWLS!" That's how...Bill! (and Joshu) > > > > > >--- In [email protected], "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Edgar, > > >> > > >> And how is this magic trick accomplished? > > >> > > >> --ED > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > ED, > > >> > > > >> > Stop practicing and just BE your Buddha Nature! > > >> > > > >> > Edgar > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Edgar, > > >> > > > > >> > > Therefore, although each of us is complete, we need to practice > > >> > > diligently at all times with no objective in mind? > > >> > > > > >> > > --ED > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > Joe and Merle, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > There is no 'goal' of enlightenment to be achieved without which > > >> you > > >> > > imagine you are incomplete.... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > There is no incompleteness. This understanding is an essential > > >> aspect > > >> > > of realization... > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Wham! > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Edgar > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
