JM, The real lesson here is the futility of trying to find enlightenment by sitting or otherwise going AGAINST the physical body. One may temporarily achieve mindlessness this way but in the end the physical body will ALWAYS win and bring the mind back to the reality of daily life. This is quite obvious...
That's why trying to find enlightenment by sitting mindlessly is an ILLUSION, one of the biggest illusions for Zen practicers especially. In the end it never works because it simply CANNOT be maintained for more than a few hours at most... The WAY of true Zen is realizing Zen in ALL of daily life. It is not trying to escape the daily world of forms but realizing the reality of Buddha Nature (ontological energy or Tao) IN the daily world of forms. Only this is true Zen because it is 24/7. Sitting mindlessly in zazen can be a useful part of realization, but it IS NOT the whole of Zen.. Edgar On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:21 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote: > If I may add to this... > > My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In other > words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our physical body. > Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to enlightenment. Then > there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance of our spirit to surpass > next... Not hard. Right? :-) > > > On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote: >> >> ED, >> >> I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're taught >> to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach us insight into >> impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I can honestly say that >> sitting without moving for an hour, or more, sometimes creates the most >> intense pain I have ever suffered in my life! The only time I've found that >> pain is completely alleviated is when I've entered into the jhanas. This is >> no exaggeration. I've gone from the most intense white-hot pain to the most >> ecstatic bliss in an instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state >> passes and the pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising >> and passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual >> understanding. >> >> Mike >> >> From: ED <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16 >> Subject: [Zen] Re: suffering >> >> >> >> >> Bill! and Mike, >> >> Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain? >> >> --ED >> >> --- In [email protected], "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote: >> > >> > Merle, >> > >> > I am also 66! >> > >> > I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're >> pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned... >> > >> > Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for >> yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not >> meet up with your expectations and disappoints you. >> > >> > You do not have to suffer. >> > >> > The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've >> seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't >> have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for >> themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make >> do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they don't >> act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little >> condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you >> should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them. >> > >> > Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will >> suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be >> envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they. >> Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have >> expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves with >> others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this >> disappoints them so they suffer. >> > >> > Zazen can help... >> > >> > ...Bill! >> >> >> > > >
