Hi Edgar,
Valid statement. The end goal is to harmonize both the form and the
formless, via synchronization with the pulse of the universe. It is in
every moment as well as 24/7. Yet, we need a foundation to accomplish this.
As you know, the authentic Chan sitting is really Tao. It is like
qigong, but not exactly the same. The first stage is to cultivate and
enhance our chi to integrate our body to a total oneness, not by
abandoning or ignoring it, but to integrate it with our mind and spirit
as one.
Then the realization, or the wisdom, synchronizes truly with Buddha, or
God, or universe.
The first step of ignoring the pain is for us to transcend our habitual
addiction to comfort. It feels like cold turkey. :-)
jm
On 9/12/2012 3:32 AM, Edgar Owen wrote:
JM,
The real lesson here is the futility of trying to find enlightenment
by sitting or otherwise going AGAINST the physical body. One may
temporarily achieve mindlessness this way but in the end the physical
body will ALWAYS win and bring the mind back to the reality of daily
life. This is quite obvious...
That's why trying to find enlightenment by sitting mindlessly is an
ILLUSION, one of the biggest illusions for Zen practicers especially.
In the end it never works because it simply CANNOT be maintained for
more than a few hours at most...
The WAY of true Zen is realizing Zen in ALL of daily life. It is not
trying to escape the daily world of forms but realizing the reality of
Buddha Nature (ontological energy or Tao) IN the daily world of forms.
Only this is true Zen because it is 24/7.
Sitting mindlessly in zazen can be a useful part of realization, but
it IS NOT the whole of Zen..
Edgar
On Sep 11, 2012, at 8:21 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote:
If I may add to this...
My teacher asks us "avoid switching legs during sitting..." In
other words, it is for training our mind to be detached from our
physical body. Because, the physical body is our first hindrance to
enlightenment. Then there is the hindrance of our mind and hindrance
of our spirit to surpass next... Not hard. Right? :-)
On 9/11/2012 4:33 PM, mike brown wrote:
ED,
I can't talk about zazen, but in Vipassana, pain is something we're
taught to welcome (within reason) because it's a good tool to teach
us insight into impermanence, suffering and an impersonal self. I
can honestly say that sitting without moving for an hour, or more,
sometimes creates the most intense pain I have ever suffered in my
life! The only time I've found that pain is completely alleviated is
when I've entered into the jhanas. This is no exaggeration. I've
gone from the most intense white-hot pain to the most ecstatic bliss
in an instant. Of course, and here's the lesson, this state passes
and the pain comes back once more. A valuable lesson in the arising
and passing of phenomena that is way beyond just an intellectual
understanding.
Mike
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* ED <[email protected]>
*To:* [email protected]
*Sent:* Tuesday, 11 September 2012, 15:16
*Subject:* [Zen] Re: suffering
Bill! and Mike,
Is it not the case that zazen or vipasana can also help alleviate pain?
--ED
--- In [email protected]
<mailto:Zen_Forum%40yahoogroups.com>, "Bill!" <BillSmart@...> wrote:
>
> Merle,
>
> I am also 66!
>
> I'm about to give you some of my definitions of terms and they're
pretty 'tough-love' definitions so be warned...
>
> Pain is NOT suffering. Pain is pain. Suffering is feeling sorry for
yourself (your self) because perhaps you're in pain and that does not
meet up with your expectations and disappoints you.
>
> You do not have to suffer.
>
> The best example I know of this is a 3-legged dog. I'm sure you've
seen many of them. They aren't suffering because (I presume) they don't
have a strong 'mental model' of 'self'. They don't feel sorry for
themselves. They don't compare themselves to other dogs. They just make
do with what they've got. I've seen dogs with only 2 legs and they don't
act any differently than those with 4. You could be a little
condescending and say 'they don't know any better' - when actually you
should be just saying 'they don't know' - and good for them.
>
> Contrast that with a human who has lost a leg. Many such humans will
suffer. They'll wonder 'why me'? 'What did I do to deserve this?' And be
envious of full-bodied humans who can do more and have more than they.
Why? Because they DO have a strong 'mental model' of 'self' and have
expectations of what life SHOULD be like, and do compare themselves with
others. Their life is not like others (the majority) and this
disappoints them so they suffer.
>
> Zazen can help...
>
> ...Bill!
