Edgar, I'm disappointed in your characterization of Joe and me.
...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Mike, Merle, Joe and Bill, > > Only for "ordinary minds" is intellect not Zen and something "to be dropped". > > For the realized mind intellect is used to solve real problems in the world > of forms in which we all exist like it or not... > > Bill and Joe's basic PROBLEM is that they HAVE A PROBLEM. They don't really > seem to like the world they live in or feel at home in it. They want to > escape the world of forms; but first of all that's totally impossible while > they still live; and second of all to vainly attempt to escape the world of > forms is to escape realization instead. > > Merle and myself on the other hand LOVE the world we live in. Merle and I > LOVE reality because we see how it continually manifests Buddha Nature in its > EVERY MINUTE DETAIL. > > Merle and I love and accept reality. Bill and Joe reject it... > > > > Edgar > > > > On Oct 25, 2012, at 8:14 PM, mike brown wrote: > > > > > The intellect is part of ordinary mind, as is being attached to emotions > > and believing in a self. This is the world of the conditioned and the > > relative. I know because I live there. It's not for want, or "lack", of > > anything that takes us beyond, but the dropping of these things. > > > > From: "yonyonson@..." <yonyonson@...> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Friday, 26 October 2012, 0:47 > > Subject: Re: [Zen] original zen > > > > > > > There's no need to speculate whether we are always aware, or not. We just > > > are. Of course, some are not aware that we are always aware. Funny you > > > should put me in that camp, but there you are... > > > > yes, a need to or not does not interfere with your speculation. ;-) > > > > "We just are" Can you feel it in your zen bones? > > > > it makes no difference to me, but when you use expressions like "going > > beyond" there must be a lacking, a goal, call it what you like. > > > > hongyeongsoo > > > > > > > > Mike > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: "yonyonson@..." <yonyonson@...> > > > To: [email protected] > > > Sent: Thursday, 25 October 2012, 23:53 > > > Subject: Re: [Zen] original zen > > > > > > > > > > > >>>does a door-post lack anything? > > >> > > >> Well, you've just answered your own question by asking me and not the > > >> door-post. > > > > > > i ask you because you seem to think so or not so. > > > > > >> > > >> > > >>>more than enough awakened persons have stated, "Awakening chooses > > >> you"; not the other way around. > > >> > > >> > > >> That's only one side of the dualistic coin (tariki = outside help; other > > >> power). The other side is of the coin is Jiriki (Awakening brought about > > >> by > > >> one's own self power/effort). They're not mutually exclusive, btw. > > > > > > tariki/jiriki...huh? outside of scriptures and/or japanese language. > > > show me please... > > > also, "outside(tariki)/inside(jiriki)"? of what? WHO? > > > > > >> > > >>> No conditions. > > >> > > >> You could say that Buddha Nature is the Unconditioned, but what prevents > > >> a > > >> person in a coma from becoming Awakened in this very moment? > > > > > > i don't know > > > > > >> > > >>>"beyond intellect into intuition and awareness"? have you been there? > > >> > > >> Who hasn't been there? Who isn't there now? Even when you're in the > > >> middle > > >> of a grievous argument your awareness of being doesn't disappear. > > > > > > reminds me of Zuigan's morning question, "Master, Master, are you > > > awake? are you Super Awake?" okay, so no problems? what are you > > > aspiring towards? > > > > > >> > > >> > > >>>or are you just speculating? > > >> > > >> What do you think? > > > > > > yes. > > > > > > hongyeongsoo > > > > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ________________________________ > > >> From: "yonyonson@..." <yonyonson@...> > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Sent: Thursday, 25 October 2012, 19:34 > > >> Subject: Re: [Zen] original zen > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> does a door-post lack anything? > > >> > > >> more than enough awakened persons have stated, "Awakening chooses > > >> you"; not the other way around. No conditions. > > >> > > >> "beyond intellect into intuition and awareness"? have you been there? > > >> or are you just speculating? > > >> > > >> hongyeongsoo > > >> > > >> "zazen is good for nothing" > > >> > > >> On 10/24/12, mike brown <uerusuboyo@...> wrote: > > >>> In Edgar's defence, try telling a door-post, or a one day old baby, or a > > >>> person in a coma - "Just This" - and see if they Awaken. So the > > >>> intellect > > >>> is > > >>> needed to both live and set the conditions for awakening, but toreally > > >>> live > > >>> we have to go beyond the intellect into intuition and awareness. 2 plus > > >>> 2 > > >>> = > > >>> 4. But what does 4 equal? > > >>> > > >>> Mike > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> ________________________________ > > >>> From: Joe <desert_woodworker@...> > > >>> To: [email protected] > > >>> Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2012, 23:26 > > >>> Subject: Re: [Zen] original zen > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Group, & Edgar, > > >>> > > >>> I did my level best to draw Edgar out, but to Noah Veil. > > >>> > > >>> I inscribe my Gatha in sorrow, with regret and apology to all. > > >>> > > >>> To Edgar: > > >>> -- ----- > > >>> Stubbornness does not Compassion show; > > >>> Nor Self-Protectiveness quicken the Slow. > > >>> One-up-man-ship > > >>> Did never steal THIS show. > > >>> > > >>> Generosity and consideration > > >>> Are a far more wholesome ration. > > >>> But Clarity, Honesty, and help, > > >>> Come not from a whelp. > > >>> > > >>> To raise a point and then depart > > >>> Is the misplaced throwing of a dart. > > >>> To live to lie another day, > > >>> is the cellulose Philosophy of a bale of Hay. > > >>> > > >>> --J. Guo-Xiang Tennen M. > > >>> > > >>>> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> REALITY, THE WORLD OF FORMS, as I just said! > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
