is this a prove it forum? merle
HYS (hongyeongsoo), I've decided to address you as 'HYS', just as I address Juemiao Jingming (our Chan teacher) as 'JMJM'. If this is not acceptable to you please let me know. I agree with the thrust of your statement below but believe you have only identified one aspect of the illusion of self that is beneficial. There is another aspect which is not beneficial. I would be more comfortable with these additions to your statement: 'Zen isa set of teachings and techniques which first assists you in experiencing your sense of self for what it really is, a very useful illusion necessary to maintain your existence in a practical way but also provides an anchor for attachments which result in suffering. Zen practice then helps you to integrate that experience into your daily life so as to reduce these attachments, both in strength and in number, and finally dissolve them entirely. And yes, in my opinion and experience and continuing practice, that is all zen is. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], yonyonson@... wrote: > > "Zen is experiencing your sense of self for what it really is, a very > useful illusion necessary to maintain your existence...." > > okay. what else is Zen? > > hongyeongsoo > > > On 10/26/12, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: > > Bill, > > > > So what? The self can enjoy being satisfied with what it gets without > > getting everything it wants. > > > > Not being satisfied completely all the time is no big deal.... > > > > Looking forward to the next cookie is just fine. > > > > It's the obsessing about not having it now which is the problem. > > > > Zen includes looking forward to the next cookie. What Zen is NOT is trashing > > looking forward to the next cookie. > > > > One needs some common sense here. It's suffering because you don't have a > > cookie that is NOT Zen. Looking forward to the next cookie is just fine.... > > > > And it is saying that looking forward to the next cookie is not Zen that is > > really what is NOT Zen.... > > > > > > > > While the notion that that person self in the usual sense is ultimately an > > illusion, Zen is enjoying and living your illusions while understanding them > > for what they really are. > > > > Zen is NOT completely ditching your sense of self. For one thing it's > > impossible so long as you live... Zen is experiencing your sense of self for > > what it really is, a very useful illusion necessary to maintain your > > existence.... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:02 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > >> Suresh, > >> > >> Your self wants to question and seeks answers. Your self wants this and > >> wants that - and never stops. No answers can fulfill your self because as > >> soon as an answer appears your self creates another question. As soon as > >> one desire is fulfilled your self creates another desire. > >> > >> There is no means of satisfying your self. > >> > >> ...Bill! > >> > >> --- In [email protected], SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@ wrote: > >> > > >> > Hi all > >> > > >> > Who wants to question? Who seeks answer? What is that he wants? Why no > >> > answers fullfill him? > >> > > >> > Suresh > >> > > >> > On 10/25/12, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > >> > > Suresh, > >> > > > >> > > Well, yes and no. Your own nature IS Buddha nature... > >> > > > >> > > Edgar > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:55 PM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: > >> > > > >> > >> > >> > >> Zen is not on how to attain buddha nature rather it is how to > >> > >> dissolve > >> > >> your own nature. > >> > >> > >> > >> suresh > >> > >> > >> > >> On Oct 25, 2012 5:31 AM, "Merle Lester" merlewiitpom@ wrote: > >> > >> This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! > >> > >> (merlewiitpom@) Add cleanup rule | More info > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> yuk!.... merle > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Joe, Merle, etc. > >> > >> > >> > >> It wasn't just a stick but a stick wrapped in something soft. I don't > >> > >> know > >> > >> what the orientals wrapped them in but these were used by the Romans > >> > >> for > >> > >> example where a sponge was wrapped around a stick. The sponges would > >> > >> be > >> > >> dipped in water or more often vinegar to clean the bottom after > >> > >> defecating. They were left beside the seats at public latrines for > >> > >> common > >> > >> use. > >> > >> > >> > >> In fact that is exactly what was used by the Roman soldiers when > >> > >> Jesus was > >> > >> on the cross and asked for water. Instead they held up a shit wiping > >> > >> stick > >> > >> dipped in vinegar to his mouth. > >> > >> > >> > >> A little known historical fact! > >> > >> > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Oct 23, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Joe wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Merle, > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in the form of a > >> > >>> flat > >> > >>> blade, like a palette-knife, or putty knife, probably from a broad > >> > >>> thin > >> > >>> piece of architectural bamboo. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> It must have been a common enough accessory in use at the Ch'an > >> > >>> monasteries, some of which housed hundreds of monks or nuns, and > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> latrines must have been extensive. And so the Master made use of > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> stick as an example, in his teaching. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the court yard" (but at > >> > >>> some > >> > >>> of the monasteries on high mountains, Oaks did not grow, but mostly > >> > >>> Pines > >> > >>> did/do). Bamboo could be brought up from below, for building, and > >> > >>> for > >> > >>> implements. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". > >> > >>> > >> > >>> The Master was very compassionate, bringing the student back into > >> > >>> the > >> > >>> "here and now" with what he said and how he said it. > >> > >>> > >> > >>> --Joe > >> > >>> > >> > >>> > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the arse?.. > >> > >>> > so it's an arse wiping stick? > >> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Thanks and best regards > >> > J.Suresh > >> > New No.3, Old No.7, > >> > Chamiers road - 1st Lane, > >> > Alwarpet, > >> > Chennai - 600018 > >> > Ph: 044 42030947 > >> > Mobile: 91 9884071738 > >> > > >> > >> > > > > >
