Bill, LOL! That's MY statement you are agreeing with, not his.
Knowing that I presume you will now DISAGREE with it? Gotcha! Edgar On Oct 26, 2012, at 10:53 PM, Bill! wrote: > > HYS (hongyeongsoo), > > I've decided to address you as 'HYS', just as I address > Juemiao Jingming (our Chan teacher) as 'JMJM'. If this is not acceptable to > you please let me know. > > I agree with the thrust of your statement below but believe you have only > identified one aspect of the illusion of self that is beneficial. There is > another aspect which is not beneficial. I would be more comfortable with > these additions to your statement: > > 'Zen is a set of teachings and techniques which first assists you in > experiencing your sense of self for what it really is, a very useful illusion > necessary to maintain your existence in a practical way but also provides an > anchor for attachments which result in suffering. Zen practice then helps > you to integrate that experience into your daily life so as to reduce these > attachments, both in strength and in number, and finally dissolve them > entirely. > > And yes, in my opinion and experience and continuing practice, that is all > zen is. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], yonyonson@... wrote: > > > > "Zen is experiencing your sense of self for what it really is, a very > > useful illusion necessary to maintain your existence...." > > > > okay. what else is Zen? > > > > hongyeongsoo > > > > > > On 10/26/12, Edgar Owen edgarowen@... wrote: > > > Bill, > > > > > > So what? The self can enjoy being satisfied with what it gets without > > > getting everything it wants. > > > > > > Not being satisfied completely all the time is no big deal.... > > > > > > Looking forward to the next cookie is just fine. > > > > > > It's the obsessing about not having it now which is the problem. > > > > > > Zen includes looking forward to the next cookie. What Zen is NOT is > > > trashing > > > looking forward to the next cookie. > > > > > > One needs some common sense here. It's suffering because you don't have a > > > cookie that is NOT Zen. Looking forward to the next cookie is just > > > fine.... > > > > > > And it is saying that looking forward to the next cookie is not Zen that > > > is > > > really what is NOT Zen.... > > > > > > > > > > > > While the notion that that person self in the usual sense is ultimately an > > > illusion, Zen is enjoying and living your illusions while understanding > > > them > > > for what they really are. > > > > > > Zen is NOT completely ditching your sense of self. For one thing it's > > > impossible so long as you live... Zen is experiencing your sense of self > > > for > > > what it really is, a very useful illusion necessary to maintain your > > > existence.... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 26, 2012, at 4:02 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > >> Suresh, > > >> > > >> Your self wants to question and seeks answers. Your self wants this and > > >> wants that - and never stops. No answers can fulfill your self because as > > >> soon as an answer appears your self creates another question. As soon as > > >> one desire is fulfilled your self creates another desire. > > >> > > >> There is no means of satisfying your self. > > >> > > >> ...Bill! > > >> > > >> --- In [email protected], SURESH JAGADEESAN varamtha@ wrote: > > >> > > > >> > Hi all > > >> > > > >> > Who wants to question? Who seeks answer? What is that he wants? Why no > > >> > answers fullfill him? > > >> > > > >> > Suresh > > >> > > > >> > On 10/25/12, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > >> > > Suresh, > > >> > > > > >> > > Well, yes and no. Your own nature IS Buddha nature... > > >> > > > > >> > > Edgar > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On Oct 24, 2012, at 8:55 PM, SURESH JAGADEESAN wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Zen is not on how to attain buddha nature rather it is how to > > >> > >> dissolve > > >> > >> your own nature. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> suresh > > >> > >> > > >> > >> On Oct 25, 2012 5:31 AM, "Merle Lester" merlewiitpom@ wrote: > > >> > >> This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! > > >> > >> (merlewiitpom@) Add cleanup rule | More info > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> yuk!.... merle > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Joe, Merle, etc. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> It wasn't just a stick but a stick wrapped in something soft. I > > >> > >> don't > > >> > >> know > > >> > >> what the orientals wrapped them in but these were used by the Romans > > >> > >> for > > >> > >> example where a sponge was wrapped around a stick. The sponges would > > >> > >> be > > >> > >> dipped in water or more often vinegar to clean the bottom after > > >> > >> defecating. They were left beside the seats at public latrines for > > >> > >> common > > >> > >> use. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> In fact that is exactly what was used by the Roman soldiers when > > >> > >> Jesus was > > >> > >> on the cross and asked for water. Instead they held up a shit wiping > > >> > >> stick > > >> > >> dipped in vinegar to his mouth. > > >> > >> > > >> > >> A little known historical fact! > > >> > >> > > >> > >> Edgar > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> On Oct 23, 2012, at 6:42 PM, Joe wrote: > > >> > >> > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Merle, > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> The latter, I think. I imagine it was fashioned in the form of a > > >> > >>> flat > > >> > >>> blade, like a palette-knife, or putty knife, probably from a broad > > >> > >>> thin > > >> > >>> piece of architectural bamboo. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> It must have been a common enough accessory in use at the Ch'an > > >> > >>> monasteries, some of which housed hundreds of monks or nuns, and > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> latrines must have been extensive. And so the Master made use of > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> stick as an example, in his teaching. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Others might have answered, "The Oak Tree in the court yard" (but > > >> > >>> at > > >> > >>> some > > >> > >>> of the monasteries on high mountains, Oaks did not grow, but mostly > > >> > >>> Pines > > >> > >>> did/do). Bamboo could be brought up from below, for building, and > > >> > >>> for > > >> > >>> implements. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> Still others might have answered, "Just THIS!". > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> The Master was very compassionate, bringing the student back into > > >> > >>> the > > >> > >>> "here and now" with what he said and how he said it. > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> --Joe > > >> > >>> > > >> > >>> > Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >> > >>> > > > >> > >>> > huh??????? wiping what.... the toilet or the arse?.. > > >> > >>> > so it's an arse wiping stick? > > >> > >>> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > -- > > >> > Thanks and best regards > > >> > J.Suresh > > >> > New No.3, Old No.7, > > >> > Chamiers road - 1st Lane, > > >> > Alwarpet, > > >> > Chennai - 600018 > > >> > Ph: 044 42030947 > > >> > Mobile: 91 9884071738 > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >
