Edgar, I'll not engage in a semantic squabble with you. Translation of Buddhist scriptures are ripe with phrases describing the significance of Siddhartha's Flower Sermon at Vulture Peak. It is primarily described as Siddhartha's 'transmission of the dharma outside the teachings' to Mahākāśyapa, or as Mahakasyapa 'receiving the dharma from Siddhartha'.
The significance of this Flower Sermon to zen is that the 'transmission' or 'reception' or 'connection' between Siddhartha (the teacher) and Mahakasyapa (the student) was WORDLESS (sometimes called mind-to-mind) and resulted in the 'transmission' or 'reception' or 'realization' of the dharma (which I interpret as 'Buddha Nature'). This is seen as the genesis of zen - a passing along of the dharma outside of the use of scriptures (sutras) - a direct realization bypassing the intellect. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > There is no "transmission" of Zen from person to person. There is only > pointing. Realization does NOT come from any other person. It comes from > directly confronting reality and seeing it as it actually is... > > Edgar > > > > On Oct 27, 2012, at 1:21 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Merle, > > > > We stress 'instructions' here because this is a forum dedicated to Zen > > Buddhism. Zen Buddhism has a history of being perpetuated by a very > > intimate, one-to-one teacher/student relationship which results in a > > mind-to-mind transmission. The first example of that I have ever heard of > > is Siddhartha's mind-to-mind transmission (realization of Buddha Nature) to > > Mahakashapa at Vulture Peak. > > > > 'Sensual' means 'having to do with the senses'. It's from the same root as > > is 'sentient' as in 'all sentient beings have Buddha Nature'. > > Our discriminating mind divides the senses into 5 categories: sight, > > hearing, smell, taste and feel. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > bill!..you are obsessed with instructions from some one else: why? > > > because that is the way you did this..so we all flow with you? > > > Â why a teacher?.... are we not all teachers unto to ourselves?... > > > Â please explain sensual.... > > > merle > > > Â > > > Edgar, Merle and Joe, > > > > > > Of course you can experience Buddha Nature 'on your own'. You could build > > > a Space Shuttle 'on your own', by trial and error, or you could take > > > advantage of the teachings and advice of those who have already built > > > one. Both Siddhartha and Jesus (according to the accounts we have)were > > > precocious children and yet even they struggled their whole life to > > > realize what we (or at least I) now call 'Buddha Nature'. > > > > > > Siddhartha is said to have first recognized life was suffering and wanted > > > to discover how to alleviate it. He first tried studying (rationality), > > > then scriptures (faith), then asceticism (body) and found no relief. He > > > finally swore to just sit under a tree until he discovered who to > > > alleviate suffering, and not to get up until he did - or died. > > > > > > As the story goes on the 40th morning he saw the light from the a star as > > > it rose above the horizon just before daybreak. It was then he realized > > > what I now call 'Buddha Nature'. > > > > > > Seeing the light was a sensual experience - not an understanding or an > > > act of faith. > > > > > > Anyone can do this by themselves as Siddhartha did or Jesus - but it is > > > much more likely you will be able to do this with the guidance of a > > > teacher. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ joe..what edgar says makes sense...who was buddha's teacher? who > > > > was christ's teacher?..merle > > > > > > > > > > > > ÃÂ > > > > Joe, > > > > > > > > You claim that "you cannot do the work to awaken on your own". > > > > > > > > O really, then who pray tell was Buddha's teacher since he had no human > > > > teacher? > > > > > > > > Give up? > > > > > > > > Answer. It was reality as I've been trying to explain to you. > > > > > > > > I prove my point... > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Oct 26, 2012, at 12:44 PM, Joe wrote: > > > > > > > > ÃÂ > > > > >Edgar, > > > > > > > > > >No, Edgar, it is not BS. > > > > > > > > > >(If you need someone to attack, try Paintball). > > > > > > > > > >A lot of self-enlightened fools traipse the streets of the world. They > > > > >are not awake. Are you one? No, I think you worked with a teacher, > > > > >once. > > > > > > > > > >The methods of Zen are Medicine, and the Teacher is Medicine, too. So > > > > >is a Sangha. > > > > > > > > > >You cannot do the work to awaken on your own. The fact that you think > > > > >it is on "your" own is what keeps you in the small bottle, and > > > > >prevents You from flowing out to expand to the walls of the infinite > > > > >aquarium. > > > > > > > > > >Take the medicine; awaken; be well; and *then* your last line is > > > > >finally true. Not before. > > > > > > > > > >Of course not everybody wants to or can do that, even if it means > > > > >never awakening. But when these fools represent themselves as masters > > > > >and demean or deprecate Practice, they are not to be suffered gladly, > > > > >nor suffered at all. > > > > > > > > > >Yes, it's everywhere. So are the unoxidizable tools of awakening, > > > > >waiting in the shed, available to you and to everyone if you want to > > > > >see a change. > > > > > > > > > >Go for it! > > > > > > > > > >Or maybe you've done this at some time, and still remember it. > > > > > > > > > >--Joe > > > > > > > > > >> Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> Joe, > > > > >> > > > > >> This is BS. > > > > >> [snip] > > > > >> Zen is not to be found in a teacher or monastery. It's everywhere > > > > >> right in front of your nose.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
