Carl,

I don't mind people paraphrasing what I said but I don't want anyone to 
associate the phrase 'what goes around comes around' with the concept of karma 
- at least not if you're attributing the statement to me.

...Bill!

--- In [email protected], "Carl" <cjjohans@...> wrote:
>
> I disagree, what goes around comes around as Bill already mentioned (since 
> all is one).
> 
> --- In [email protected], "Joe" <desert_woodworker@> wrote:
> >
> > Carl,
> > 
> > The way you express what is I think your understanding of basic Buddhist 
> > tenets makes me think that you have them a little garbled.  
> > 
> > (but of course it's not necessary for a Zen practitioner to adopt those 
> > tenets in order to practice and definitely to awaken.  Some find them 
> > useful, some don't.  So let's leave them aside.  The key thing is practice: 
> > effective practice).  
> > 
> > Alleviating the suffering of others is not a path to awakening.
> > 
> > Losing -- utterly losing -- the view that there *are* "others" *is* 
> > Awakening.
> > 
> > It does not come as an act of will.
> > 
> > One must forget oneself.
> > 
> > It is a re-joining of the family of all life.
> > 
> > Zen practice can set you up, there.
> > 
> > --Joe
> > 
> > > "Carl" <cjjohans@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I don't know that I agree with that view of nature, there are predators 
> > > and there are herbivores, the former inflict suffering and fear the 
> > > latter do not (in fact some plant life even "wants" to be consumed in 
> > > order to propagate). There are the hunting parent and the nurturing 
> > > parent.
> > > 
> > > I also don't agree with the view that everyone who is not enlightened is 
> > > suffering. In fact I think there are plenty who are enjoying their lives 
> > > and seek every means to prolong it, who are even morally suspect. There 
> > > are of course also plenty who are suffering materially, but I would not 
> > > in general call them less enlightened.
> > > 
> > > Since suffering and enlightenment are conceptually unrelated in my view, 
> > > alleviation of the suffering of others is one path but not the only path 
> > > to enlightenment to me.
> >
>




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