Edgar, I'm really getting very tired of seeing you go on and on about what is 'Zen' and what is not when what you're saying many times seems about as far from 'Zen' as I think you can get.
How about this? Please define for me what it is you mean when you use the term 'Zen'. This definition doesn't have to be absolutely inclusive but just give me an idea of what that word means to you. ...Bill! > It was you that claimed multitasking is NEVER Zen. > > I merely stated it CAN BE Zen just like anything else can be... > > Claiming Zen is ONLY doing one thing at a time is comic book zen, not true > Zen.... > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I'm not ever saying that what you continue to propose which is centered > > around rationality is bad, or unwholesome, or not practical or anything > > like that. Like now you are proposing multi-tasking. Fine! I've read > > articles where some people can multi-task 5, 6, 7 or more lines of thoughts > > in their mind at once. Good for them! > > > > I'm only saying that is not zen. That is not an objective of zen, a > > byproduct of zen and in all seriousness it is something that is > > contraindicated in zen. > > > > This is why I take the time to challenge you every time you say something > > like this. Not because I think what you're suggesting is EVIL or crazy or > > even non-productive, but because you keep calling it zen. > > > > It's not. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >> > >> Bill, > >> > >> Even cutting carrots is a complex action involving coordination of many > >> muscles and movements. It is NOT a single action.. Without using your mind > >> doing it your fingers will end up in the stew! > >> > >> If you have half a mind you are able to think about what you will do after > >> dinner WHILE you are cutting carrots. > >> > >> That is true Zen! > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Apr 20, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Bill! wrote: > >> > >>> Edgar, > >>> > >>> Every human action is not a combination of many actions. Fixing dinner > >>> may be, but cutting carrots is not. Peeling potatoes is not. And even if > >>> the complete act of fixing dinner does require a number of coordinated > >>> efforts it does not require, and in fact is weakened by, thinking about > >>> what you want to do after you eat. > >>> > >>> Zen is not "...using the rational mind to accomplish this by recognizing > >>> the true nature of the world of forms one is working with.....". That is > >>> problem-solving. That is rationality. That is not zen which is the > >>> experience of Buddha Nature. > >>> > >>> I'm sorry you put so much emphasis on rationality. Although I am sure it > >>> must be very comforting it is also very confining. But then that might be > >>> okay for you living in a world which you fill completely up with illusory > >>> nails. > >>> > >>> ...Bill! > >>> > >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> Bill, > >>>> > >>>> The 'only one thing at a time delusion' is a common misunderstanding of > >>>> Zen. > >>>> > >>>> In actuality EVERY human action is a combination of many actions. Fixing > >>>> dinner is NOT just a single action called fixing dinner, it's a complex > >>>> sequence of multiple actions that MUST be in the correct logical > >>>> sequence to succeed. > >>>> > >>>> The correct understanding is not allowing mind to engage with > >>>> unnecessary or irrelevant thoughts as they may arise but to concentrate > >>>> on the logical multiplex of actions at hand to achieve the end... > >>>> > >>>> This all has to do with how Zen works in the world of forms. It REQUIRES > >>>> INTELLECT to function effectively. > >>>> > >>>> Cooking dinner is NOT a single activity as comic book Zen supposes. It > >>>> is a complex sequence of rationally oriented events including shopping > >>>> for ingredients, planning what is to be cooked, cutting and chopping, > >>>> mixing, cooking but only until done, serving the correct portions to the > >>>> correct number of people etc. etc. etc. > >>>> > >>>> Zen is using the rational mind to accomplish this by recognizing the > >>>> true nature of the world of forms one is working with..... > >>>> > >>>> If one does not use the rational mind during cooking one will fail. That > >>>> is NOT Zen, that is incompetence! > >>>> > >>>> Edgar > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:45 AM, Bill! wrote: > >>>> > >>>>> Merle, > >>>>> > >>>>> This is a very common occurrence. Zen literature refers to this as the > >>>>> 'monkey mind' because it seems to just go on and on without end and > >>>>> out-of-control. > >>>>> > >>>>> Zazen (and other zen teaching techniques) specifically target 'monkey > >>>>> mind' and try to calm it down until it eventually ceases all activity. > >>>>> Then you can have a direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature). > >>>>> > >>>>> When you do things like weeding or probably painting you may focus your > >>>>> whole being on just weeding or just painting. If you do this it is just > >>>>> like zazen in which you may start by concentrating on your breath. This > >>>>> single-mindedness concentration is what is meant by the zen saying, > >>>>> "When sit, just sit. When walking, just walk. Above all don't wobble." > >>>>> That means when your doing anything, just do that. Don't try to do many > >>>>> things at once, and especially don't do something while thinking about > >>>>> something else. Like painting while thinking about what you're going to > >>>>> fix for dinner. Or when fixing dinner not thinking about what you're > >>>>> going to paint after eating. When painting, just paint. When fixing > >>>>> dinner, just fix dinner. > >>>>> > >>>>> And yes, it's much easier said than done... > >>>>> > >>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>> > >>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Â > >>>>>> Â bill..yes i understand..thank you..yes i agree with you..the > >>>>>> intellect chatter..that is constant with me and i find it so tiring to > >>>>>> the point where i get a headache..i go out and do weeding to freshen > >>>>>> my brain.. i am constantly asking questions mostly ones one cannot > >>>>>> answer anyway..round and round in circles i go... chewing it over and > >>>>>> over... i am a bit of a problem solver..that's what happens at night > >>>>>> and i cannot turn my mind off so i can't sleep..yes and then there is > >>>>>> the emotions rocking me around like a boat...i need to go watch a show > >>>>>> on telly now..back later..thank you bill!..i appreciate this > >>>>>> post..merle > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Â > >>>>>> Merle, > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You are definitely on the right track. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You can't just turn these things off. Daido talked about that. You > >>>>>> just let them come and go. The zen story about that (there's a zen > >>>>>> story about everything) is it is like when you are busy doing > >>>>>> something and someone comes to your door. You can answer the door, > >>>>>> tell them you'r busy right now and that they can come back later. What > >>>>>> you don't do is invite them in for tea and a lengthy chat. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> You can begin to quiet your mind down by doing what Daido said (or by > >>>>>> chanting or bowing or koan study, etc...), and when you do reach the > >>>>>> point to where all these thoughts have been turned off (I use the word > >>>>>> 'quiesce' or 'paused' or 'temporarily halted') THEN you will > >>>>>> experience Buddha Nature - which is the direct experience of reality > >>>>>> WITHOUT all the intellectual and emotional chatter going on. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> And basically that's it! Then it's just a matter of 'practicing' so > >>>>>> you can keep all that chatter at an absolute minimum - not cease it > >>>>>> permanently but only use it (your intellect/your rationality) when > >>>>>> it's appropriate. Your intellect (logic/rationality) is just one of > >>>>>> the many tools you have in your human tool bag and you shouldn't treat > >>>>>> it like it is the only one. Like I've reminded people on this forum of > >>>>>> the old saying which I apply to the intellect, "When all one has is a > >>>>>> hammer, everything looks like a nail". > >>>>>> > >>>>>> I call all this intellectual chatter 'illusion' and I call only the > >>>>>> direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature) 'real' - and that's where > >>>>>> the major difference of opinion (or at least terminology) between > >>>>>> Edgar and me - at least IMO. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Enjoy...Bill! > >>>>>> > >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ÃÂ bill! yes i know the scoreboard..sometimes it's hard to turn off > >>>>>>> the mind and experience non thought..and basically it's feelings that > >>>>>>> get me into a knot...i get so many different feelings flooding > >>>>>>> me..from joy to utter despair...all bubbling away like a volcano... > >>>>>>> this is what i find difficult to turn that switch off..however i note > >>>>>>> in my study..i just let them pass as they come and then they go like > >>>>>>> a log floating down a stream..am i on the right track?..merle > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ÃÂ > >>>>>>> Merle, > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> I agree with what Mike says below and would reinforce that in the > >>>>>>> statement you quoted, 'you are your best teacher'... > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> If 'you' means your self, your ego, your intellect, your dualistic, > >>>>>>> rational mind - then it is definitely not your best teacher (for zen). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> But if 'you' means experience, Buddha Nature, the absence of ego, > >>>>>>> itellect, dualism, etc... - then it is definitely your best teacher > >>>>>>> (for zen). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> ...Bill! > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>>> Merle,<br/><br/>Depends what you mean by "you". If 'you' means your > >>>>>>>> ego, then absolutely not because the mind will colour things to suit > >>>>>>>> itself. If by 'you' you mean reality, then absolutely yes! And by > >>>>>>>> reality I mean the immediacy of direct experience. Buddha said, "Be > >>>>>>>> a lamp unto yourself". Only you will know if the tea is hot or cold > >>>>>>>> (remember that topic!). A teacher is only a guide and friend. > >>>>>>>> Ultimately only you can workout your own salvation. > >>>>>>>> <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > >>>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! 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