Bill, Zen is like pornography. You'll know it when you see it! :-)
EDgar On Apr 21, 2013, at 7:57 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > I'm really getting very tired of seeing you go on and on about what is 'Zen' > and what is not when what you're saying many times seems about as far from > 'Zen' as I think you can get. > > How about this? Please define for me what it is you mean when you use the > term 'Zen'. This definition doesn't have to be absolutely inclusive but just > give me an idea of what that word means to you. > > ...Bill! > > > It was you that claimed multitasking is NEVER Zen. > > > > I merely stated it CAN BE Zen just like anything else can be... > > > > Claiming Zen is ONLY doing one thing at a time is comic book zen, not true > > Zen.... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > I'm not ever saying that what you continue to propose which is centered > > > around rationality is bad, or unwholesome, or not practical or anything > > > like that. Like now you are proposing multi-tasking. Fine! I've read > > > articles where some people can multi-task 5, 6, 7 or more lines of > > > thoughts in their mind at once. Good for them! > > > > > > I'm only saying that is not zen. That is not an objective of zen, a > > > byproduct of zen and in all seriousness it is something that is > > > contraindicated in zen. > > > > > > This is why I take the time to challenge you every time you say something > > > like this. Not because I think what you're suggesting is EVIL or crazy or > > > even non-productive, but because you keep calling it zen. > > > > > > It's not. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >> > > >> Bill, > > >> > > >> Even cutting carrots is a complex action involving coordination of many > > >> muscles and movements. It is NOT a single action.. Without using your > > >> mind doing it your fingers will end up in the stew! > > >> > > >> If you have half a mind you are able to think about what you will do > > >> after dinner WHILE you are cutting carrots. > > >> > > >> That is true Zen! > > >> > > >> Edgar > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On Apr 20, 2013, at 8:29 AM, Bill! wrote: > > >> > > >>> Edgar, > > >>> > > >>> Every human action is not a combination of many actions. Fixing dinner > > >>> may be, but cutting carrots is not. Peeling potatoes is not. And even > > >>> if the complete act of fixing dinner does require a number of > > >>> coordinated efforts it does not require, and in fact is weakened by, > > >>> thinking about what you want to do after you eat. > > >>> > > >>> Zen is not "...using the rational mind to accomplish this by > > >>> recognizing the true nature of the world of forms one is working > > >>> with.....". That is problem-solving. That is rationality. That is not > > >>> zen which is the experience of Buddha Nature. > > >>> > > >>> I'm sorry you put so much emphasis on rationality. Although I am sure > > >>> it must be very comforting it is also very confining. But then that > > >>> might be okay for you living in a world which you fill completely up > > >>> with illusory nails. > > >>> > > >>> ...Bill! > > >>> > > >>> --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Bill, > > >>>> > > >>>> The 'only one thing at a time delusion' is a common misunderstanding > > >>>> of Zen. > > >>>> > > >>>> In actuality EVERY human action is a combination of many actions. > > >>>> Fixing dinner is NOT just a single action called fixing dinner, it's a > > >>>> complex sequence of multiple actions that MUST be in the correct > > >>>> logical sequence to succeed. > > >>>> > > >>>> The correct understanding is not allowing mind to engage with > > >>>> unnecessary or irrelevant thoughts as they may arise but to > > >>>> concentrate on the logical multiplex of actions at hand to achieve the > > >>>> end... > > >>>> > > >>>> This all has to do with how Zen works in the world of forms. It > > >>>> REQUIRES INTELLECT to function effectively. > > >>>> > > >>>> Cooking dinner is NOT a single activity as comic book Zen supposes. It > > >>>> is a complex sequence of rationally oriented events including shopping > > >>>> for ingredients, planning what is to be cooked, cutting and chopping, > > >>>> mixing, cooking but only until done, serving the correct portions to > > >>>> the correct number of people etc. etc. etc. > > >>>> > > >>>> Zen is using the rational mind to accomplish this by recognizing the > > >>>> true nature of the world of forms one is working with..... > > >>>> > > >>>> If one does not use the rational mind during cooking one will fail. > > >>>> That is NOT Zen, that is incompetence! > > >>>> > > >>>> Edgar > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> On Apr 20, 2013, at 5:45 AM, Bill! wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>>> Merle, > > >>>>> > > >>>>> This is a very common occurrence. Zen literature refers to this as > > >>>>> the 'monkey mind' because it seems to just go on and on without end > > >>>>> and out-of-control. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Zazen (and other zen teaching techniques) specifically target 'monkey > > >>>>> mind' and try to calm it down until it eventually ceases all > > >>>>> activity. Then you can have a direct experience of reality (Buddha > > >>>>> Nature). > > >>>>> > > >>>>> When you do things like weeding or probably painting you may focus > > >>>>> your whole being on just weeding or just painting. If you do this it > > >>>>> is just like zazen in which you may start by concentrating on your > > >>>>> breath. This single-mindedness concentration is what is meant by the > > >>>>> zen saying, "When sit, just sit. When walking, just walk. Above all > > >>>>> don't wobble." That means when your doing anything, just do that. > > >>>>> Don't try to do many things at once, and especially don't do > > >>>>> something while thinking about something else. Like painting while > > >>>>> thinking about what you're going to fix for dinner. Or when fixing > > >>>>> dinner not thinking about what you're going to paint after eating. > > >>>>> When painting, just paint. When fixing dinner, just fix dinner. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> And yes, it's much easier said than done... > > >>>>> > > >>>>> ...Bill! > > >>>>> > > >>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>  > > >>>>>>  bill..yes i understand..thank you..yes i agree with you..the > > >>>>>> intellect chatter..that is constant with me and i find it so tiring > > >>>>>> to the point where i get a headache..i go out and do weeding to > > >>>>>> freshen my brain.. i am constantly asking questions mostly ones one > > >>>>>> cannot answer anyway..round and round in circles i go... chewing it > > >>>>>> over and over... i am a bit of a problem solver..that's what happens > > >>>>>> at night and i cannot turn my mind off so i can't sleep..yes and > > >>>>>> then there is the emotions rocking me around like a boat...i need to > > >>>>>> go watch a show on telly now..back later..thank you bill!..i > > >>>>>> appreciate this post..merle > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>  > > >>>>>> Merle, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> You are definitely on the right track. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> You can't just turn these things off. Daido talked about that. You > > >>>>>> just let them come and go. The zen story about that (there's a zen > > >>>>>> story about everything) is it is like when you are busy doing > > >>>>>> something and someone comes to your door. You can answer the door, > > >>>>>> tell them you'r busy right now and that they can come back later. > > >>>>>> What you don't do is invite them in for tea and a lengthy chat. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> You can begin to quiet your mind down by doing what Daido said (or > > >>>>>> by chanting or bowing or koan study, etc...), and when you do reach > > >>>>>> the point to where all these thoughts have been turned off (I use > > >>>>>> the word 'quiesce' or 'paused' or 'temporarily halted') THEN you > > >>>>>> will experience Buddha Nature - which is the direct experience of > > >>>>>> reality WITHOUT all the intellectual and emotional chatter going on. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> And basically that's it! Then it's just a matter of 'practicing' so > > >>>>>> you can keep all that chatter at an absolute minimum - not cease it > > >>>>>> permanently but only use it (your intellect/your rationality) when > > >>>>>> it's appropriate. Your intellect (logic/rationality) is just one of > > >>>>>> the many tools you have in your human tool bag and you shouldn't > > >>>>>> treat it like it is the only one. Like I've reminded people on this > > >>>>>> forum of the old saying which I apply to the intellect, "When all > > >>>>>> one has is a hammer, everything looks like a nail". > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I call all this intellectual chatter 'illusion' and I call only the > > >>>>>> direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature) 'real' - and that's > > >>>>>> where the major difference of opinion (or at least terminology) > > >>>>>> between Edgar and me - at least IMO. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Enjoy...Bill! > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>  bill! yes i know the scoreboard..sometimes it's hard to turn > > >>>>>>> off the mind and experience non thought..and basically it's > > >>>>>>> feelings that get me into a knot...i get so many different feelings > > >>>>>>> flooding me..from joy to utter despair...all bubbling away like a > > >>>>>>> volcano... this is what i find difficult to turn that switch > > >>>>>>> off..however i note in my study..i just let them pass as they come > > >>>>>>> and then they go like a log floating down a stream..am i on the > > >>>>>>> right track?..merle > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>  > > >>>>>>> Merle, > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> I agree with what Mike says below and would reinforce that in the > > >>>>>>> statement you quoted, 'you are your best teacher'... > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> If 'you' means your self, your ego, your intellect, your dualistic, > > >>>>>>> rational mind - then it is definitely not your best teacher (for > > >>>>>>> zen). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> But if 'you' means experience, Buddha Nature, the absence of ego, > > >>>>>>> itellect, dualism, etc... - then it is definitely your best teacher > > >>>>>>> (for zen). > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> ...Bill! > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Merle,<br/><br/>Depends what you mean by "you". If 'you' means > > >>>>>>>> your ego, then absolutely not because the mind will colour things > > >>>>>>>> to suit itself. If by 'you' you mean reality, then absolutely yes! > > >>>>>>>> And by reality I mean the immediacy of direct experience. Buddha > > >>>>>>>> said, "Be a lamp unto yourself". Only you will know if the tea is > > >>>>>>>> hot or cold (remember that topic!). A teacher is only a guide and > > >>>>>>>> friend. Ultimately only you can workout your own salvation. > > >>>>>>>> <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >
