Chris, Organisms are computational systems programmed by evolution to survive. Thus they act so as to facilitate survival. That is intent...
It's a very simple concept quite easy to understand... Edgar On Apr 21, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > The intent is not possible from the perspective of the deterministic > computation. Intent if it can be defined at all would be some shadowy high > level approximation of the lower levels. > > Your sentence "computational system with intent" is like a sentence "chemical > factories with nostalgia." True but bizarrely mismatched. > > Also, I wonder why you cling so hard to the idea of time flowing from the > fixed past towards a not yet calculated future? Doesn't that seem like an > illusory perspective to you? > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On Apr 21, 2013 8:22 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Chris, > > We are talking about living organisms which are computational systems WITH > intent. The entire universe of forms is a computational system that > continually computes its current state of existence. There is no evidence of > intent in the non-living universe depending on how intent is defined... > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 21, 2013, at 7:47 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > >> >> >> Does deterministic computation imply intent? (sum 1 1) ... the intent is >> what? >> >> I am sure that the moon can survive just fine without intent. >> >> Thanks, >> --Chris >> 301-270-6524 >> On Apr 21, 2013 6:14 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Chris, >> >> There can be but not necessarily (computation could be completely random). >> But only an intelligent intentional organism is able to survive... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Apr 21, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Is there intention in computation? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> --Chris >>> 301-270-6524 >>> On Apr 21, 2013 5:58 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>> >>> Chris, >>> >>> Of course there is intention because whether it happens in the conscious or >>> unconscious mind the actions are goal oriented no matter whether it's >>> something simple like taking a drink or breathing to keep from dying.... >>> >>> The human body is a computational system that continually computes its >>> actions on a logical basis. If this were not so it could not function and >>> would soon die. >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No, they still take place as they do, some conscious and some not, but >>>> with no effort nor intention. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> --Chris >>>> 301-270-6524 >>>> On Apr 21, 2013 3:36 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> That is true only with respect to the conscious mind. The only difference >>>> is that all the rational computations are now taking place in the >>>> UNconscious mind, but they are STILL taking place... >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 21, 2013, at 3:13 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The opposite of monkey mind is not doing one thing but effortless >>>>> activity - no one doing no thing. In cutting carrots each muscle, nerve, >>>>> knife and plant goes on just as it is, no need to do anything. >>>>> >>>>> The 10,000 things take care of them selves with no effort and no boundary. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> --Chris >>>>> 301-270-6524 >>>>> On Apr 21, 2013 8:29 AM, "Merle Lester" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> bill...many thanks..yes single minded would you not say?..devoted to the >>>>> task at hand...question: why is multi tasking and multi thinking regarded >>>>> as "the enemy"? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Merle, >>>>> >>>>> This is a very common occurrence. Zen literature refers to this as the >>>>> 'monkey mind' because it seems to just go on and on without end and >>>>> out-of-control. >>>>> >>>>> Zazen (and other zen teaching techniques) specifically target 'monkey >>>>> mind' and try to calm it down until it eventually ceases all activity. >>>>> Then you can have a direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature). >>>>> >>>>> When you do things like weeding or probably painting you may focus your >>>>> whole being on just weeding or just painting. If you do this it is just >>>>> like zazen in which you may start by concentrating on your breath. This >>>>> single-mindedness concentration is what is meant by the zen saying, "When >>>>> sit, just sit. When walking, just walk. Above all don't wobble." That >>>>> means when your doing anything, just do that. Don't try to do many things >>>>> at once, and especially don't do something while thinking about something >>>>> else. Like painting while thinking about what you're going to fix for >>>>> dinner. Or when fixing dinner not thinking about what you're going to >>>>> paint after eating. When painting, just paint. When fixing dinner, just >>>>> fix dinner. >>>>> >>>>> And yes, it's much easier said than done... >>>>> >>>>> ...Bill! >>>>> >>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >  >>>>> >  bill..yes i understand..thank you..yes i agree with you..the >>>>> > intellect chatter..that is constant with me and i find it so tiring to >>>>> > the point where i get a headache..i go out and do weeding to freshen my >>>>> > brain.. i am constantly asking questions mostly ones one cannot answer >>>>> > anyway..round and round in circles i go... chewing it over and over... >>>>> > i am a bit of a problem solver..that's what happens at night and i >>>>> > cannot turn my mind off so i can't sleep..yes and then there is the >>>>> > emotions rocking me around like a boat...i need to go watch a show on >>>>> > telly now..back later..thank you bill!..i appreciate this post..merle >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> >  >>>>> > Merle, >>>>> > >>>>> > You are definitely on the right track. >>>>> > >>>>> > You can't just turn these things off. Daido talked about that. You just >>>>> > let them come and go. The zen story about that (there's a zen story >>>>> > about everything) is it is like when you are busy doing something and >>>>> > someone comes to your door. You can answer the door, tell them you'r >>>>> > busy right now and that they can come back later. What you don't do is >>>>> > invite them in for tea and a lengthy chat. >>>>> > >>>>> > You can begin to quiet your mind down by doing what Daido said (or by >>>>> > chanting or bowing or koan study, etc...), and when you do reach the >>>>> > point to where all these thoughts have been turned off (I use the word >>>>> > 'quiesce' or 'paused' or 'temporarily halted') THEN you will experience >>>>> > Buddha Nature - which is the direct experience of reality WITHOUT all >>>>> > the intellectual and emotional chatter going on. >>>>> > >>>>> > And basically that's it! Then it's just a matter of 'practicing' so you >>>>> > can keep all that chatter at an absolute minimum - not cease it >>>>> > permanently but only use it (your intellect/your rationality) when it's >>>>> > appropriate. Your intellect (logic/rationality) is just one of the many >>>>> > tools you have in your human tool bag and you shouldn't treat it like >>>>> > it is the only one. Like I've reminded people on this forum of the old >>>>> > saying which I apply to the intellect, "When all one has is a hammer, >>>>> > everything looks like a nail". >>>>> > >>>>> > I call all this intellectual chatter 'illusion' and I call only the >>>>> > direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature) 'real' - and that's where >>>>> > the major difference of opinion (or at least terminology) between Edgar >>>>> > and me - at least IMO. >>>>> > >>>>> > Enjoy...Bill! >>>>> > >>>>> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >  bill! yes i know the scoreboard..sometimes it's hard to turn off >>>>> > > the mind and experience non thought..and basically it's feelings that >>>>> > > get me into a knot...i get so many different feelings flooding >>>>> > > me..from joy to utter despair...all bubbling away like a volcano... >>>>> > > this is what i find difficult to turn that switch off..however i note >>>>> > > in my study..i just let them pass as they come and then they go like >>>>> > > a log floating down a stream..am i on the right track?..merle >>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >  >>>>> > > Merle, >>>>> > > >>>>> > > I agree with what Mike says below and would reinforce that in the >>>>> > > statement you quoted, 'you are your best teacher'... >>>>> > > >>>>> > > If 'you' means your self, your ego, your intellect, your dualistic, >>>>> > > rational mind - then it is definitely not your best teacher (for zen). >>>>> > > >>>>> > > But if 'you' means experience, Buddha Nature, the absence of ego, >>>>> > > itellect, dualism, etc... - then it is definitely your best teacher >>>>> > > (for zen). >>>>> > > >>>>> > > ...Bill! >>>>> > > >>>>> > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > > Merle,<br/><br/>Depends what you mean by "you". If 'you' means your >>>>> > > > ego, then absolutely not because the mind will colour things to >>>>> > > > suit itself. If by 'you' you mean reality, then absolutely yes! And >>>>> > > > by reality I mean the immediacy of direct experience. Buddha said, >>>>> > > > "Be a lamp unto yourself". Only you will know if the tea is hot or >>>>> > > > cold (remember that topic!). A teacher is only a guide and friend. >>>>> > > > Ultimately only you can workout your own salvation. >>>>> > > > <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone >>>>> > > > >>>>> > > >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > > >
