Evolution itself lacks intent. What holds this intent? Evolution doesn't do anything, it is a description, the organisms which become more common are more adapted to the environment in which they reproduce.many plants for instance are annual, dieing each year, while some are perennial, living for many years.
Thanks, --Chris 301-270-6524 On Apr 21, 2013 7:07 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Chris, > > Organisms are computational systems programmed by evolution to survive. > Thus they act so as to facilitate survival. That is intent... > > It's a very simple concept quite easy to understand... > > Edgar > > > > On Apr 21, 2013, at 8:33 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: > > > > The intent is not possible from the perspective of the deterministic > computation. Intent if it can be defined at all would be some shadowy high > level approximation of the lower levels. > > Your sentence "computational system with intent" is like a sentence > "chemical factories with nostalgia." True but bizarrely mismatched. > > Also, I wonder why you cling so hard to the idea of time flowing from the > fixed past towards a not yet calculated future? Doesn't that seem like an > illusory perspective to you? > > Thanks, > --Chris > 301-270-6524 > On Apr 21, 2013 8:22 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> Chris, >> >> We are talking about living organisms which are computational systems >> WITH intent. The entire universe of forms is a computational system that >> continually computes its current state of existence. There is no evidence >> of intent in the non-living universe depending on how intent is defined... >> >> Edgar >> >> >> >> On Apr 21, 2013, at 7:47 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >> >> >> >> Does deterministic computation imply intent? (sum 1 1) ... the intent >> is what? >> >> I am sure that the moon can survive just fine without intent. >> >> Thanks, >> --Chris >> 301-270-6524 >> On Apr 21, 2013 6:14 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> Chris, >>> >>> There can be but not necessarily (computation could be completely >>> random). But only an intelligent intentional organism is able to survive... >>> >>> Edgar >>> >>> >>> >>> On Apr 21, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> Is there intention in computation? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> --Chris >>> 301-270-6524 >>> On Apr 21, 2013 5:58 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Chris, >>>> >>>> Of course there is intention because whether it happens in the >>>> conscious or unconscious mind the actions are goal oriented no matter >>>> whether it's something simple like taking a drink or breathing to keep from >>>> dying.... >>>> >>>> The human body is a computational system that continually computes its >>>> actions on a logical basis. If this were not so it could not function and >>>> would soon die. >>>> >>>> Edgar >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Apr 21, 2013, at 5:44 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> No, they still take place as they do, some conscious and some not, but >>>> with no effort nor intention. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> --Chris >>>> 301-270-6524 >>>> On Apr 21, 2013 3:36 PM, "Edgar Owen" <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Chris, >>>>> >>>>> That is true only with respect to the conscious mind. The only >>>>> difference is that all the rational computations are now taking place in >>>>> the UNconscious mind, but they are STILL taking place... >>>>> >>>>> Edgar >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Apr 21, 2013, at 3:13 PM, Chris Austin-Lane wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> The opposite of monkey mind is not doing one thing but effortless >>>>> activity - no one doing no thing. In cutting carrots each muscle, nerve, >>>>> knife and plant goes on just as it is, no need to do anything. >>>>> >>>>> The 10,000 things take care of them selves with no effort and no >>>>> boundary. >>>>> >>>>> Thanks, >>>>> --Chris >>>>> 301-270-6524 >>>>> On Apr 21, 2013 8:29 AM, "Merle Lester" <[email protected]> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> bill...many thanks..yes single minded would you not say?..devoted to >>>>>> the task at hand...question: why is multi tasking and multi thinking >>>>>> regarded as "the enemy"? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Merle, >>>>>> >>>>>> This is a very common occurrence. Zen literature refers to this as >>>>>> the 'monkey mind' because it seems to just go on and on without end and >>>>>> out-of-control. >>>>>> >>>>>> Zazen (and other zen teaching techniques) specifically target 'monkey >>>>>> mind' and try to calm it down until it eventually ceases all activity. >>>>>> Then >>>>>> you can have a direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature). >>>>>> >>>>>> When you do things like weeding or probably painting you may focus >>>>>> your whole being on just weeding or just painting. If you do this it is >>>>>> just like zazen in which you may start by concentrating on your breath. >>>>>> This single-mindedness concentration is what is meant by the zen saying, >>>>>> "When sit, just sit. When walking, just walk. Above all don't wobble." >>>>>> That >>>>>> means when your doing anything, just do that. Don't try to do many things >>>>>> at once, and especially don't do something while thinking about something >>>>>> else. Like painting while thinking about what you're going to fix for >>>>>> dinner. Or when fixing dinner not thinking about what you're going to >>>>>> paint >>>>>> after eating. When painting, just paint. When fixing dinner, just fix >>>>>> dinner. >>>>>> >>>>>> And yes, it's much easier said than done... >>>>>> >>>>>> ...Bill! >>>>>> >>>>>> --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >  >>>>>> >  bill..yes i understand..thank you..yes i agree with you..the >>>>>> intellect chatter..that is constant with me and i find it so tiring to >>>>>> the >>>>>> point where i get a headache..i go out and do weeding to freshen my >>>>>> brain.. >>>>>> i am constantly asking questions mostly ones one cannot answer >>>>>> anyway..round and round in circles i go... chewing it over and over... i >>>>>> am >>>>>> a bit of a problem solver..that's what happens at night and i cannot turn >>>>>> my mind off so i can't sleep..yes and then there is the emotions rocking >>>>>> me >>>>>> around like a boat...i need to go watch a show on telly now..back >>>>>> later..thank you bill!..i appreciate this post..merle >>>>>> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >  >>>>>> > Merle, >>>>>> > >>>>>> > You are definitely on the right track. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > You can't just turn these things off. Daido talked about that. You >>>>>> just let them come and go. The zen story about that (there's a zen story >>>>>> about everything) is it is like when you are busy doing something and >>>>>> someone comes to your door. You can answer the door, tell them you'r busy >>>>>> right now and that they can come back later. What you don't do is invite >>>>>> them in for tea and a lengthy chat. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > You can begin to quiet your mind down by doing what Daido said (or >>>>>> by chanting or bowing or koan study, etc...), and when you do reach the >>>>>> point to where all these thoughts have been turned off (I use the word >>>>>> 'quiesce' or 'paused' or 'temporarily halted') THEN you will experience >>>>>> Buddha Nature - which is the direct experience of reality WITHOUT all the >>>>>> intellectual and emotional chatter going on. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > And basically that's it! Then it's just a matter of 'practicing' so >>>>>> you can keep all that chatter at an absolute minimum - not cease it >>>>>> permanently but only use it (your intellect/your rationality) when it's >>>>>> appropriate. Your intellect (logic/rationality) is just one of the many >>>>>> tools you have in your human tool bag and you shouldn't treat it like it >>>>>> is >>>>>> the only one. Like I've reminded people on this forum of the old saying >>>>>> which I apply to the intellect, "When all one has is a hammer, everything >>>>>> looks like a nail". >>>>>> > >>>>>> > I call all this intellectual chatter 'illusion' and I call only the >>>>>> direct experience of reality (Buddha Nature) 'real' - and that's where >>>>>> the >>>>>> major difference of opinion (or at least terminology) between Edgar and >>>>>> me >>>>>> - at least IMO. >>>>>> > >>>>>> > Enjoy...Bill! >>>>>> > >>>>>> > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > >  bill! yes i know the scoreboard..sometimes it's hard to turn >>>>>> off the mind and experience non thought..and basically it's feelings that >>>>>> get me into a knot...i get so many different feelings flooding me..from >>>>>> joy >>>>>> to utter despair...all bubbling away like a volcano... this is what i >>>>>> find >>>>>> difficult to turn that switch off..however i note in my study..i just let >>>>>> them pass as they come and then they go like a log floating down a >>>>>> stream..am i on the right track?..merle >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > >  >>>>>> > > Merle, >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > I agree with what Mike says below and would reinforce that in the >>>>>> statement you quoted, 'you are your best teacher'... >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > If 'you' means your self, your ego, your intellect, your >>>>>> dualistic, rational mind - then it is definitely not your best teacher >>>>>> (for >>>>>> zen). >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > But if 'you' means experience, Buddha Nature, the absence of ego, >>>>>> itellect, dualism, etc... - then it is definitely your best teacher (for >>>>>> zen). >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > ...Bill! >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > --- In [email protected], uerusuboyo@ wrote: >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > > Merle,<br/><br/>Depends what you mean by "you". If 'you' means >>>>>> your ego, then absolutely not because the mind will colour things to suit >>>>>> itself. If by 'you' you mean reality, then absolutely yes! And by >>>>>> reality I >>>>>> mean the immediacy of direct experience. Buddha said, "Be a lamp unto >>>>>> yourself". Only you will know if the tea is hot or cold (remember that >>>>>> topic!). A teacher is only a guide and friend. Ultimately only you can >>>>>> workout your own salvation. <br/><br/>Mike<br/><br/><br/>Sent from Yahoo! >>>>>> Mail for iPhone >>>>>> > > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > > >
