Bill, I agree there are lots of sentient beings that aren't able to reason, like Bill and Joe for starters! :-)
Edgar On May 3, 2013, at 5:19 AM, Bill! wrote: > Merle, > > That's right! Don't let him off the hook! What about all the sentient beings > that are not able to reason - like bacteria and plants? > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > > > > > >  edgar..yes agreed.. > > > > however you are constantly rabbeting on about reason... > > > >  please clarify in regards to intellectually disabled and mentally > > challenged human beings...merle > > > > > >  > > Merle, > > > > Every being and even every thing in the universe xperiences Buddha Nature > > all the time because there is nothing else... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 8:01 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > can an intellectually disabled mind experience the buddha nature if we > > >must begin with reason as our first requirement edgar?... > > > > > > > > >ho hum.. > > > > > > > > >merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Edgar, > > > > > > > > >I think we're getting very close here to the core of our disagreements, > > >and I think this has to do with your continual use of the word 'Zen' > > >whereas I use 'experience Buddha Nature' > > > > > > > > >Below you wrote: > > > > > > > > >[Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then > > >can you experience the true nature of the world of forms.  That's Zen..." > > > > > > > > >My question to you was: > > > > > > > > >[Bill!]  "What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with > > >the ability to reason?" > > > > > > > > >Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting excited...) > > > > > > > > >Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can engage in > > >(practice, partake of) Zen? > > > > > > > > >This is NOT a trick question.  There will be no 'gotcha's' no matter what > > >you answer...I promise... > > > > > > > > >...Bill! > > > > > > > > >--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > >> > > >> What about them? > > >> > > >> Edgar > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > >> > > >> > Edgar, > > >> > > > >> > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the > > >> > ability to reason? > > >> > > > >> > ...Bill! > > >> > > > >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured out using > > >> > > reason. Only after learning them can they be done via second nature. > > >> > > > > >> > > This is another proof that first we must understand reality. Only > > >> > > then can it be directly experienced as it actually is. > > >> > > > > >> > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all the time. > > >> > > But without understanding what we are experiencing is the > > magician's tricks reality continually plays on us as illusion appears to be > > reality that we experience as reality. We are fooled into thinking illusion > > is reality if we have no understanding of the nature of forms. > > >> > > > > >> > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to use water > > >> > > to start a fire. Never hatchy! > > >> > > > > >> > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. Then you > > >> > > start a fire.... > > >> > > > > >> > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then can > > >> > > you experience the true nature of the world of forms. > > >> > > > > >> > > That's Zen... > > >> > > > > >> > > Edgar > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It depends > > >> > > > instead on real life. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in Nature, and luck > > >> > > > and spontaneity, and takes no time to "figure out". > > >> > > > > > >> > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass on their > > >> > > > genes. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, however. Of > > >> > > > course they'll argue! There's little left for them. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > --Joe > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > >> > > > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us > > survive because it accurately models reality! > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> What will Bill say? > > >> > > >> :-) > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Edgar > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being killed. > > >> > > >>> Figured out what was safe to eat without being poisoned. Figured > > >> > > >>> out how to survive. > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ wrote: > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > > > >>>> Hi, William, > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> Figured what out? > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> --Joe > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>>> > Email wrote: > > >> > > >>>> > > > >> > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the Mammoth > > >> > > >>>> > with a rock who failed to pass on his genes. The fellows who > > >> > > >>>> > figured it out are our forefathers > > >> > > >>>> > > >> > > >>> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
