Merle, I'll comment on two things you said below that I think are very important"
[Merle] "reasoning is just another tool we use to get by so to speak it is not the end all of everything..." ...and [Merle] "bill is saying that we must let go of reasoning.." You are absolutely correct that "reasoning is just another tool" in our human toolbag. But when I say something like "we must let go of reasoning" I don't mean we should discard it completely. I mean we must let go of our ATTACHMENT to reasoning. It's like the old adage - 'When all you've got is a hammer, everything looks like a nail'. So...if you want to screw in a screw you should use a screwdriver. In order to use the screwdriver you must first put down the hammer. You can always pick the hammer back up again and carry it around with you on your belt or even in your hand if you want (like some people we know); but you shouldn't believe it is the appropriate or only tool for every circumstance. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@...> wrote: > > > >  Edgar..this is plain cruel... > > you are putting far too much store in the intellect and reasoning...for > goodness sake.. > > what would buddha think of you?... > >  reasoning is just another tool we use to get by so to speak it is not the > end all of everything... > > where are your feelings?... > over and over again..bill..correct me if i am not correct bill.... > >  bill is saying that we must let go of reasoning.. > > when we are in meditation you don't use reasoning..you are in a space that is > non thinking.. > > so how the hell can you be doing reasoning edgar?... > > your mind is suppose to have quietened down..to do reasoning you have to be > doing self talking ..so it's not possible..and you must know this.. > > you are for ever going on about 24/7 zen...yes correct..that is the beauty of > zen..it just is "drinking tea" and "eating rice" "sweeping floor"... > > so you just do..you don't carry on with self chattering and reasoning with > yourself..well you might... > > so where the hell are you coming from?... > > you need to clarify your reasoning story in relationship to zen.. > > it has becoming a mantra for you that has developed into an illusion as you > forever carry it's cross like a martyr.. > > time to let it go.. > > go outside into the fresh air and fill your lungs with it's sweetness..and > just learn to BE... > > sit in a quiet place in the garden and contemplate... > > no need to take mr. reasoning with you.. > > leave it for just this moment in time...and enjoy the freedom ... merle > > >  > Bill, > > I agree there are lots of sentient beings that aren't able to reason, like > Bill and Joe for starters! > :-) > > Edgar > > > > On May 3, 2013, at 5:19 AM, Bill! wrote: > >  > >Merle, > > > >That's right! Don't let him off the hook! What about all the sentient > >beings that are not able to reason - like bacteria and plants? > > > >...Bill! > > > >--- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> àedgar..yes agreed.. > >> > >> however you are constantly rabbeting on about reason... > >> > >> àplease clarify in regards to intellectually disabled and mentally > >> challenged human beings...merleà> >> > >> > >> à> >> Merle, > >> > >> Every being and even every thing in the universe xperiences Buddha Nature > >> all the time because there is nothing else... > >> > >> Edgar > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On May 2, 2013, at 8:01 AM, Merle Lester wrote: > >> > >> à> >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >àcan an intellectually disabled mind experience the buddha nature if > >> >we must begin with reason as our first requirement edgar?... > >> > > >> > > >> >ho hum.. > >> > > >> > > >> >merle > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >à> >> >Edgar, > >> > > >> > > >> >I think we're getting very close here to the core of our disagreements, > >> >and I think this has to do with your continual use of the word 'Zen' > >> >whereas I use 'experience Buddha Nature' > >> > > >> > > >> >Below you wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> >[Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then > >> >can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. àThat's > >> >Zen..." > >> > > >> > > >> >My question to you was: > >> > > >> > > >> >[Bill!] à"What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed > >> >with the ability to reason?" > >> > > >> > > >> >Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting excited...) > >> > > >> > > >> >Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can engage in > >> >(practice, partake of) Zen? > >> > > >> > > >> >This is NOT a trick question. àThere will be no 'gotcha's' no matter > >> >what you answer...I promise... > >> > > >> > > >> >...Bill! > >> > > >> > > >> >--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > >> >> > >> >> What about them? > >> >> > >> >> Edgar > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > Edgar, > >> >> > > >> >> > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the > >> >> > ability to reason? > >> >> > > >> >> > ...Bill! > >> >> > > >> >> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured out using > >> >> > > reason. Only after learning them can they be done via second nature. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > This is another proof that first we must understand reality. Only > >> >> > > then can it be directly experienced as it actually is. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all the time. > >> >> > > But without understanding what we are experiencing is the > >> magician's tricks reality continually plays on us as illusion appears to > >> be reality that we experience as reality. We are fooled into thinking > >> illusion is reality if we have no understanding of the nature of forms. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to use water > >> >> > > to start a fire. Never hatchy! > >> >> > > > >> >> > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. Then you > >> >> > > start a fire.... > >> >> > > > >> >> > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then > >> >> > > can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > That's Zen... > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Edgar > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > >> >> > >> > > > > >> >> > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It depends > >> >> > > > instead on real life. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in Nature, and luck > >> >> > > > and spontaneity, and takes no time to "figure out". > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass on their > >> >> > > > genes. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, however. Of > >> >> > > > course they'll argue! There's little left for them. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > --Joe > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us > >> survive because it accurately models reality! > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> What will Bill say? > >> >> > > >> :-) > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> Edgar > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >>> > >> >> > > >>> > >> >> > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being killed. > >> >> > > >>> Figured out what was safe to eat without being poisoned. > >> >> > > >>> Figured out how to survive. > >> >> > > >>> > >> >> > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > >> >> > > >>> > >> >> > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ wrote: > >> >> > > >>> > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > > >> >>>> Hi, William, > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> Figured what out? > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> --Joe > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>>> > Email wrote: > >> >> > > >>>> > > >> >> > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the Mammoth > >> >> > > >>>> > with a rock who failed to pass on his genes. The fellows who > >> >> > > >>>> > figured it out are our forefathers > >> >> > > >>>> > >> >> > > >>> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > >> > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
