can an intellectually disabled mind experience the buddha nature if we must begin with reason as our first requirement edgar?...
ho hum.. merle Edgar, I think we're getting very close here to the core of our disagreements, and I think this has to do with your continual use of the word 'Zen' whereas I use 'experience Buddha Nature' Below you wrote: [Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. That's Zen..." My question to you was: [Bill!] "What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the ability to reason?" Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting excited...) Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can engage in (practice, partake of) Zen? This is NOT a trick question. There will be no 'gotcha's' no matter what you answer...I promise... ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > What about them? > > Edgar > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the ability > > to reason? > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured out using > > > reason. Only after learning them can they be done via second nature. > > > > > > This is another proof that first we must understand reality. Only then > > > can it be directly experienced as it actually is. > > > > > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all the time. But > > > without understanding what we are experiencing is the magician's tricks > > > reality continually plays on us as illusion appears to be reality that we > > > experience as reality. We are fooled into thinking illusion is reality if > > > we have no understanding of the nature of forms. > > > > > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to use water to > > > start a fire. Never hatchy! > > > > > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. Then you start a > > > fire.... > > > > > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then can you > > > experience the true nature of the world of forms. > > > > > > That's Zen... > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > > > > > > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It depends instead > > > > on real life. > > > > > > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in Nature, and luck and > > > > spontaneity, and takes no time to "figure out". > > > > > > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass on their genes. > > > > > > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, however. Of course > > > > they'll argue! There's little left for them. > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us survive because it accurately > > > >> models reality! > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> What will Bill say? > > > >> :-) > > > >> > > > >> Edgar > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > > > >> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being killed. Figured out > > > >>> what was safe to eat without being poisoned. Figured out how to > > > >>> survive. > > > >>> > > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > > >>> > > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ wrote: > > > >>> > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Hi, William, > > > >>>> > > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > > > >>>> > > > >>>> Figured what out? > > > >>>> > > > >>>> --Joe > > > >>>> > > > >>>> > Email wrote: > > > >>>> > > > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the Mammoth with a > > > >>>> > rock who failed to pass on his genes. The fellows who figured it > > > >>>> > out are our forefathers > > > >>>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
