Bill, You HAVE had a lobotomy!
That explains why you don't understand what I mean by Zen.... :-) Edgar On May 2, 2013, at 9:18 AM, Bill! wrote: > Edgar, > > Again, you are using the term 'Zen' when I've used 'experience Buddha > Nature'. I don't consider these two terms the as referring to the same thing. > Zen certainly is strongly associated with Buddha Nature, but it is not Buddha > Nature - least the way I use these terms. > > ...Bill! > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > > > Bill, > > > > LOL! > > > > I think you should have a lobotomy. It might improve your Zen by your > > definition... > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > Merle, > > > > > > I say defintely YES! A mentally deficient person can experience Buddha > > > Nature - and I THINK (but cannot say for sure) that they can experience > > > Buddha Nature more easily than a normal person. > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester <merlewiitpom@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â can an intellectually disabled mind experience the buddha nature if > > > > we must begin with reason as our first requirement edgar?... > > > > > > > > ho hum.. > > > > > > > > merle > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Â > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > I think we're getting very close here to the core of our disagreements, > > > > and I think this has to do with your continual use of the word 'Zen' > > > > whereas I use 'experience Buddha Nature' > > > > > > > > Below you wrote: > > > > > > > > [Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only > > > > then can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. Â That's > > > > Zen..." > > > > > > > > My question to you was: > > > > > > > > [Bill!] Â "What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed > > > > with the ability to reason?" > > > > > > > > Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting excited...) > > > > > > > > Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can engage in > > > > (practice, partake of) Zen? > > > > > > > > This is NOT a trick question. Â There will be no 'gotcha's' no matter > > > > what you answer...I promise... > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What about them? > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with the > > > > > > ability to reason? > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured out > > > > > > > using reason. Only after learning them can they be done via > > > > > > > second nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is another proof that first we must understand reality. Only > > > > > > > then can it be directly experienced as it actually is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all the time. > > > > > > > But without understanding what we are experiencing is the > > > > > > > magician's tricks reality continually plays on us as illusion > > > > > > > appears to be reality that we experience as reality. We are > > > > > > > fooled into thinking illusion is reality if we have no > > > > > > > understanding of the nature of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to use > > > > > > > water to start a fire. Never hatchy! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. Then you > > > > > > > start a fire.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only then > > > > > > > can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's Zen... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It depends > > > > > > > > instead on real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in Nature, and > > > > > > > > luck and spontaneity, and takes no time to "figure out". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass on > > > > > > > > their genes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, however. Of > > > > > > > > course they'll argue! There's little left for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us survive because it > > > > > > > >> accurately models reality! > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> What will Bill say? > > > > > > > >> :-) > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> Edgar > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being killed. > > > > > > > >>> Figured out what was safe to eat without being poisoned. > > > > > > > >>> Figured out how to survive. > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ wrote: > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> Hi, William, > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> Figured what out? > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> --Joe > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>>> > Email wrote: > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the Mammoth > > > > > > > >>>> > with a rock who failed to pass on his genes. The fellows > > > > > > > >>>> > who figured it out are our forefathers > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
