Edgar, I do not experience illusions. I perceive them.
I experience sight, sound, touch, taste and smell; and all these taken together holistically are Buddha Nature. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > Whether or not you create them you then experience them. There is no way > around that. > > Edgar > > > On May 2, 2013, at 9:15 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I don't experience illusion. I create them. I call this perception, not > > experience. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > You experience illusions. Therefore they are things by your own > > > definition. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > Okay, we're still not in synch. > > > > > > > > I agree that Zen is the realization (I call it experience) of Buddha > > > > Nature in all things without exception, but I don't consider illusions > > > > 'things' - I only consider experience 'things'. > > > > > > > > I do believe all sentient being have Buddha Nature and that is why I > > > > exclude reason as being a prerequisite. I don't think reason excludes a > > > > sentient being from experiencing Buddha Nature but it's not necessary. > > > > > > > > I thought maybe we were going to be able to agree that 'zen' is a > > > > singularly human activity, one in which humans experience (you say > > > > realize) Buddha Nature, but it looks like that's not the case. > > > > > > > > You seem to still insist that intellect (reason) is required to > > > > 'realize' Buddha Nature. I do not. > > > > > > > > Thanks for your reply...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > This is another one difficult to put into words exactly so bear with > > > > > me..... > > > > > > > > > > First to clear the air what I call Zen is realization of Buddha > > > > > Nature in ALL things without exception. Everything is Buddha Nature, > > > > > whether its original formlessness or all the forms that manifest it. > > > > > > > > > > Thus all beings are themselves also empty forms inhabiting the world > > > > > of forms, but their essence, like the essence of all things, is > > > > > Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > The world of forms is like ripples, waves and currents in an ocean. > > > > > The have no substance of their own. They are entirely manifestations > > > > > of the underlying water. Likewise the world of forms is all empty > > > > > forms in the sea of Buddha Nature. They have no substances of their > > > > > own. They are all manifestations of the underlying formless Buddha > > > > > Nature that is their only substance. > > > > > > > > > > Reality consists of the ocean of formless Buddha Nature and all the > > > > > empty forms that exist within in it. > > > > > > > > > > All beings are themselves empty forms manifesting like waves in the > > > > > all encompassing sea of Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > Thus all beings are already enlightened because their only substance > > > > > is that of the underlying formless Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > Realized beings are the ones that understand this as opposed to the > > > > > ones that don't. > > > > > > > > > > Everyone, every being, thus experiences Buddha Nature all the time. > > > > > It is impossible not to because Buddha Nature IS ALL THAT EXISTS. > > > > > > > > > > When one realizes this there is instant enlightenment! > > > > > > > > > > Every being, every one, is already enlightened. Just open your mind's > > > > > eye... > > > > > > > > > > WHAM! > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 6:53 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we're getting very close here to the core of our > > > > > > disagreements, and I think this has to do with your continual use > > > > > > of the word 'Zen' whereas I use 'experience Buddha Nature' > > > > > > > > > > > > Below you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. > > > > > > Only then can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. > > > > > > That's Zen..." > > > > > > > > > > > > My question to you was: > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!] "What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed > > > > > > with the ability to reason?" > > > > > > > > > > > > Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting > > > > > > excited...) > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can engage > > > > > > in (practice, partake of) Zen? > > > > > > > > > > > > This is NOT a trick question. There will be no 'gotcha's' no matter > > > > > > what you answer...I promise... > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed with > > > > > > > > the ability to reason? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured out > > > > > > > > > using reason. Only after learning them can they be done via > > > > > > > > > second nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is another proof that first we must understand reality. > > > > > > > > > Only then can it be directly experienced as it actually is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all the > > > > > > > > > time. But without understanding what we are experiencing is > > > > > > > > > the magician's tricks reality continually plays on us as > > > > > > > > > illusion appears to be reality that we experience as reality. > > > > > > > > > We are fooled into thinking illusion is reality if we have no > > > > > > > > > understanding of the nature of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to use > > > > > > > > > water to start a fire. Never hatchy! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. Then > > > > > > > > > you start a fire.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. Only > > > > > > > > > then can you experience the true nature of the world of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's Zen... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It > > > > > > > > > > depends instead on real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in Nature, > > > > > > > > > > and luck and spontaneity, and takes no time to "figure out". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass on > > > > > > > > > > their genes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, however. > > > > > > > > > > Of course they'll argue! There's little left for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us survive because > > > > > > > > > >> it accurately models reality! > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> What will Bill say? > > > > > > > > > >> :-) > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> Edgar > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being killed. > > > > > > > > > >>> Figured out what was safe to eat without being poisoned. > > > > > > > > > >>> Figured out how to survive. > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Hi, William, > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> Figured what out? > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> --Joe > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>>> > Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the > > > > > > > > > >>>> > Mammoth with a rock who failed to pass on his genes. > > > > > > > > > >>>> > The fellows who figured it out are our forefathers > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! 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