Edgar, EXPERIENCE is sensual and takes place before any post-processing is done by the intellect.
PERCEPTION is the result of the post-processing done by the intellect. Here is a zen story that I'm sure you've heard of before that illustrates this: NO THINKING, NO SUFFERING There is a story told by the Zen master Seung Sahn. Many years ago there was a young man living in Korea, and the young man felt that his life was quite empty. So he shaved his head and went up into the mountains to live the life of a monk. He studied diligently for a number of years, but still felt that he did not really understand how to be free. The young man had heard of certain Zen masters living in China so he gathered his meager belongings and started a long and arduous journey across arid plains. Every day he would walk for many hours, and would stop only after finding a patch of land that had a source of water. Finding water was not at all a simple task in such dry lands, but a task necessary for preserving his life. There were many times he had to walk until quite late in the evening before finding a suitable location in which to rest and be refreshed. One day was particularly hot, and the monk walked on endlessly, unable to find an oasis. As day turned into a moonless night, the pace of his walking slowed considerably so that we would not fall and hurt or kill himself. When he did finally find a shaded area he collapsed on the ground and slept for several hours. He woke up some time after midnight and he was tremendously thirsty. He crawled around on his hands and knees in the darkness, and ran across a roughly made cup that must have been left by a previous traveler. The custom of leaving a cup with some water in it, for the next traveler to drink from was quite common. He drank the meager amount of water in the cup and he felt very blessed and very at peace with the world. He laid down again and slept quite comfortably until awaking to the light of the early morning sun. Upon sitting up he saw what the night before, he had taken to be the roughly made cup. It was a shattered skull of a baby wolf. This skull was caked with dried blood, and numerous insects were floating on the surface of the small quantity of filthy rain water still left in the bottom portion of the skull. The monk saw all of this and immediately started to vomit. He had a great wave of nausea, and as the fluid poured forth from his mouth, it was as if his mind was being cleansed. He immediately felt a deep sense of understanding. Last night, since he couldn't see he assumed that he had found a cup which had been left by a fellow traveler. The water tasted delicious. This morning, upon seeing the skull, the thought of what he had done the night before made him sick to his stomach. He understood that it was his thinking, and not the water, that made him feel ill. It was his thinking that created good and bad, right and wrong, delicious and foul tasting. With no thinking there was no suffering. Having realized this, his journey was complete, as he no longer needed to find a Zen master. Source - http://www.newagejournal.com/nothinking.shtml In the above story the refreshing drink of water was experience. The sick feeling the next day was perception. ...Bill! --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote: > > Bill, > > What's the difference in your definition? > > Edgar > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 9:22 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > Edgar, > > > > I do not experience illusions. I perceive them. > > > > I experience sight, sound, touch, taste and smell; and all these taken > > together holistically are Buddha Nature. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > Whether or not you create them you then experience them. There is no way > > > around that. > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 9:15 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > I don't experience illusion. I create them. I call this perception, not > > > > experience. > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > You experience illusions. Therefore they are things by your own > > > > > definition. > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 8:41 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > Okay, we're still not in synch. > > > > > > > > > > > > I agree that Zen is the realization (I call it experience) of > > > > > > Buddha Nature in all things without exception, but I don't consider > > > > > > illusions 'things' - I only consider experience 'things'. > > > > > > > > > > > > I do believe all sentient being have Buddha Nature and that is why > > > > > > I exclude reason as being a prerequisite. I don't think reason > > > > > > excludes a sentient being from experiencing Buddha Nature but it's > > > > > > not necessary. > > > > > > > > > > > > I thought maybe we were going to be able to agree that 'zen' is a > > > > > > singularly human activity, one in which humans experience (you say > > > > > > realize) Buddha Nature, but it looks like that's not the case. > > > > > > > > > > > > You seem to still insist that intellect (reason) is required to > > > > > > 'realize' Buddha Nature. I do not. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks for your reply...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is another one difficult to put into words exactly so bear > > > > > > > with me..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First to clear the air what I call Zen is realization of Buddha > > > > > > > Nature in ALL things without exception. Everything is Buddha > > > > > > > Nature, whether its original formlessness or all the forms that > > > > > > > manifest it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus all beings are themselves also empty forms inhabiting the > > > > > > > world of forms, but their essence, like the essence of all > > > > > > > things, is Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The world of forms is like ripples, waves and currents in an > > > > > > > ocean. The have no substance of their own. They are entirely > > > > > > > manifestations of the underlying water. Likewise the world of > > > > > > > forms is all empty forms in the sea of Buddha Nature. They have > > > > > > > no substances of their own. They are all manifestations of the > > > > > > > underlying formless Buddha Nature that is their only substance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Reality consists of the ocean of formless Buddha Nature and all > > > > > > > the empty forms that exist within in it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All beings are themselves empty forms manifesting like waves in > > > > > > > the all encompassing sea of Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus all beings are already enlightened because their only > > > > > > > substance is that of the underlying formless Buddha Nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Realized beings are the ones that understand this as opposed to > > > > > > > the ones that don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everyone, every being, thus experiences Buddha Nature all the > > > > > > > time. It is impossible not to because Buddha Nature IS ALL THAT > > > > > > > EXISTS. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When one realizes this there is instant enlightenment! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Every being, every one, is already enlightened. Just open your > > > > > > > mind's eye... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > WHAM! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 6:53 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I think we're getting very close here to the core of our > > > > > > > > disagreements, and I think this has to do with your continual > > > > > > > > use of the word 'Zen' whereas I use 'experience Buddha Nature' > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Below you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Edgar] "First you use reason to understand the world of forms. > > > > > > > > Only then can you experience the true nature of the world of > > > > > > > > forms. That's Zen..." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My question to you was: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Bill!] "What then of all the sentient beings that are not > > > > > > > > endowed with the ability to reason?" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Now here's what maybe the difference-breaker...(I'm getting > > > > > > > > excited...) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Are you saying that only beings that can employ reason can > > > > > > > > engage in (practice, partake of) Zen? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is NOT a trick question. There will be no 'gotcha's' no > > > > > > > > matter what you answer...I promise... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What about them? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 2, 2013, at 2:26 AM, Bill! wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What then of all the sentient beings that are not endowed > > > > > > > > > > with the ability to reason? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen edgarowen@ > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In the history of humanity first things had to be figured > > > > > > > > > > > out using reason. Only after learning them can they be > > > > > > > > > > > done via second nature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is another proof that first we must understand > > > > > > > > > > > reality. Only then can it be directly experienced as it > > > > > > > > > > > actually is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Of course we all directly experience reality anyway all > > > > > > > > > > > the time. But without understanding what we are > > > > > > > > > > > experiencing is the magician's tricks reality continually > > > > > > > > > > > plays on us as illusion appears to be reality that we > > > > > > > > > > > experience as reality. We are fooled into thinking > > > > > > > > > > > illusion is reality if we have no understanding of the > > > > > > > > > > > nature of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Not using reason to figure out reality is like trying to > > > > > > > > > > > use water to start a fire. Never hatchy! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to figure out how to start a fire. > > > > > > > > > > > Then you start a fire.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > First you use reason to understand the world of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > Only then can you experience the true nature of the world > > > > > > > > > > > of forms. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's Zen... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 3:25 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My comment is addressed towards Joe's statement that " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Our success as a species does not depend on models. It > > > > > > > > > > > > depends instead on real life. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Much of it is genuine engagement with Nature, in > > > > > > > > > > > > Nature, and luck and spontaneity, and takes no time to > > > > > > > > > > > > "figure out". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The figure-outers are in the dust, and tend not to pass > > > > > > > > > > > > on their genes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They'll argue that their way is the superior one, > > > > > > > > > > > > however. Of course they'll argue! There's little left > > > > > > > > > > > > for them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On May 1, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Edgar Owen edgarowen@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Gosh, this suggests that reason helps us survive > > > > > > > > > > > >> because it accurately models reality! > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> What will Bill say? > > > > > > > > > > > >> :-) > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> Edgar > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> On May 1, 2013, at 3:06 PM, Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Figured out how to kill the Mammoth without being > > > > > > > > > > > >>> killed. Figured out what was safe to eat without > > > > > > > > > > > >>> being poisoned. Figured out how to survive. > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> On May 1, 2013, at 1:45 PM, "Joe" desert_woodworker@ > > > > > > > > > > > >>> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Hi, William, > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> OK, I'll bite. > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> Figured what out? > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> --Joe > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > Email wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > I disagree. It was the first guy who attacked the > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > Mammoth with a rock who failed to pass on his > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > genes. The fellows who figured it out are our > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > forefathers > > > > > > > > > > > >>>> > > > > > > > > > > > >>> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------ Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ <*> Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email: [email protected] [email protected] <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [email protected] <*> Your use of Yahoo! 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