I agree...Bill!
--- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@...> wrote:
>
> Bill,
>
> The actual lesson here is that compassion is not to be done for any reward....
>
> That's the lesson the little bitting Buddha doggie teaches....
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On May 3, 2013, at 5:42 AM, Bill! wrote:
>
> > Edgar,
> >
> > Just remember the old adage...'no good deed goes unpunished'...Bill!
> >
> > --- In [email protected], Edgar Owen <edgarowen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bill, et al,
> > >
> > > This reminds me of when I was living in Japan. One day I was walking
> > > along a drainage canal and saw a small white dog drowning in it. The
> > > canal had high concrete walls and it couldn't climb out. I jumped in and
> > > saved it and as soon as I got it out it bit me!
> > >
> > > Funniest thing was that the day it happened was Buddha's birthday!
> > >
> > > Kind of reminds me of Joe's and Bill's response for all I do for them!
> > > :-)
> > >
> > > Edgar
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On May 2, 2013, at 9:08 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Merle,
> > > >
> > > > I have have been practicing for about 47 years, sometimes intensely and
> > > > sometimes not. I have not yet been able to eliminate all ignorance and
> > > > all craving but I have been able to reduce them both in number and in
> > > > intensity quite a bit.
> > > >
> > > > MY PERSONAL STORY
> > > > About two years ago I discovered very young puppies tied up in a burlap
> > > > bag and tossed out onto the highway near my mountain home. The bag had
> > > > been run over by a car and was soaked in blood. When I opened the bag I
> > > > found 2 dead puppies, 1 with a broken back and a completely flattened
> > > > pelvis area with intestines oozing out and one was not hurt. I killed
> > > > the one with the broken back with my neighbors shotgun by shooting it
> > > > in the head and buried it and the 2 dead puppies in the jungle.
> > > >
> > > > I kept the surviving puppy and named it Batman because of it's long
> > > > ears and pug nose.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ...Bill!
> > > >
> > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Â bill!..thank you...
> > > > >
> > > > > have you been able to eliminate all ignorance and all craving?
> > > > >
> > > > >  can you share a personal story  with the group?
> > > > >
> > > > > merle
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Â
> > > > > Merle,
> > > > >
> > > > > Sorry, but that's the God-awful truth. Â Buddhism is all about the
> > > > > relief of suffering.
> > > > >
> > > > > Here is what Wikipedia has to say about Buddhism:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BuddhismÂ
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Buddhism is a religion indigenous to the Indian subcontinentÂ
> > > > > that encompasses a variety of traditions, beliefs and practices
> > > > > largely based on teachings attributed to Siddhartha Gautama, who is
> > > > > commonly known as the Buddha, meaning "the awakened one". The Buddha
> > > > > lived and taught in the eastern part of the Indian subcontinentÂ
> > > > > sometime between the 6th and 4th centuries BCE.[1]Â He is recognized
> > > > > by Buddhists as an awakened or enlightened teacher who shared his
> > > > > insights to help sentient beings end their suffering (dukkha)
> > > > > through the elimination of ignorance (avidyÃ) by way of
> > > > > understanding and the seeing of dependent origination
> > > > > (pratëtyasamutpÃda) and the elimination of craving
> > > > > (taá¹â¡hÃ), and thus the attainment of the cessation of all
> > > > > suffering, known as the sublime state of nirvÃÃ
â a.[2]
> > > > >
> > > > > I've highlighted the parts to which I want to draw your attention
> > > > > that pertain to the question at hand.
> > > > >
> > > > > And before someone jumps all over me on this I want to point out that
> > > > > this is BUDDHISM, not zen.
> > > > >
> > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÂ rubbish..you can dissolve into the now..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > life is suffering..nothing to do with attachments..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > like to see you bill when you have a physical aliment..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > sure you can whisk it away for a moment or two..try mental
> > > > > > suffering...that cannot be dissolvedÃÂ
> > > > > >
> > > > > > the promise of buddhism is release from suffering..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > right..maybe
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yes it is a way of viewing suffering however you cannot escape it..
> > > > > >
> > > > > > rather you accept it
> > > > > >
> > > > > > so how come buddhist monks are the first to set fire to themselves
> > > > > > when they see injustices done?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÂ that would be mega suffering and don't tell me they don't
> > > > > > suffer as the flames engulf them
> > > > > >
> > > > > > have you ever truly suffered bill?.. or seen loved ones suffering?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÂ as you eat your stir fried chicken do you not realise the
> > > > > > suffering that was impose on this creature that you might live and
> > > > > > live to suffer?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > acceptance is the key word in my books
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÂ acceptance, ÃÂ compassion and universal love
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÂ if that is not buddhism then well i'll be blown over by a stick
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÂ merle
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ÃÂ
> > > > > > Merle,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Suffering can be entirely eliminated and William is right that this
> > > > > > is the promise of Buddhism.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is Buddhism 101:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > - Life is suffering
> > > > > > - Suffering is caused by attachments
> > > > > > - Attachments are caused by/enabled by identification with your self
> > > > > > - The self is illusory
> > > > > >
> > > > > > So, like a big house of cards when you dissolve the illusion of
> > > > > > self you take away the anchor for attachments causing them to fall
> > > > > > away which eliminates suffering.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And how do you come to recognize the self as illusory? My
> > > > > > suggestion is you do zazen (zen meditation) staring with counting
> > > > > > your breaths. When you stop your intellect from producing illusions
> > > > > > (and most especially the illusion of self) you experience Buddha
> > > > > > Nature.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And then Voila! Just This!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > ...Bill!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In [email protected], Merle Lester merlewiitpom@ wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > my understanding is suffering cannot be eliminated..how the hell
> > > > > > > can that come about..the very nature of life is
> > > > > > > suffering...ÃâÃÂ
> > > > > > > point to me who does not what does not..be it animal mineral or
> > > > > > > vegetable..
> > > > > > > the notion of happy happy is absurd..
> > > > > > > we can come to terms with suffering
> > > > > > > Ãâàwe can embrace and realise that compassion and eternal
> > > > > > > universal love can lift us from suffering and soar us high above
> > > > > > > the treetops to the heavens above just as the eagle flies we too
> > > > > > > can fly..
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > merle
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ãâàsome strawberries are sour i have noted in my many years
> > > > > > > of eating strawberries...this i refer to as the "chop suey" of
> > > > > > > life...sweet and sour...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃâÃÂ
> > > > > > > And yet you are the one who started this conversation.ÃâàIt
> > > > > > > has been my understanding that the primaryÃâàmessage of
> > > > > > > Buddhism was addressing suffering.ÃâàWhat it is and how to
> > > > > > > stop it. The Buddha was not searching or teaching ways to survive
> > > > > > > crises but to end suffering.ÃâàI can agree that
> > > > > > > survivability might be enhanced by being fully in the moment but
> > > > > > > I see no certainty of it. In my readings of Zen the moment of
> > > > > > > Death is often addressed with an awareness and often a smile. The
> > > > > > > strawberry is so sweet.Ãâàsuey
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ________________________________
> > > > > > > From: Joe desert_woodworker@
> > > > > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > > > > Sent: Wed, May 1, 2013 4:27:50 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Someone Else's Opinion on What is Real and
> > > > > > > What is Not...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ÃâÃÂ
> > > > > > > Hi, William,
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The crisis is and was the one you raised earlier, about killing
> > > > > > > some beast or other. Thought and pondering at that scene would be
> > > > > > > inexcusable, while acting in accord with need, informed by your
> > > > > > > intimacy and full presence and awareness of conditions, would
> > > > > > > give you an opening to hunt another day.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Coming back to practice, practice enables habits to drop, so we
> > > > > > > can be present fully. You can still use what you've learned, but
> > > > > > > you won't be bound by it. That is all.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And that is the point. I won't engage in useless historicizing,
> > > > > > > not in a Zen discussion forum, anyway. If we're not already clear
> > > > > > > about how practice works, then the next step is clear: practice.
> > > > > > > There may be pointers on it here at the Forum. A real teacher
> > > > > > > face to face is the best teacher though, many here would agree.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --Joe
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Email wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > You've modified your original position from a statement of our
> > > > > > > > genetic
> > > > > > > inheritance to surviving a crisis. That quite a bit different.
> > > > > > > However from your current position are you saying that the people
> > > > > > > who died from the bombings in Boston were "burdened and unable to
> > > > > > > act spontaneously" while those who survived were "acting
> > > > > > > spontaneously and were unburdened"? Or is there some other type
> > > > > > > if crisis?
> > > > > > > > If two people, one who was unburdened and acting spontaneously
> > > > > > > > and had never encountered a tiger in the wild and the other who
> > > > > > > > hunted tigers daily, were to suddenly be faced with one, who
> > > > > > > > would survive this crisis?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
I
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