ryhorikawa,  
 
Think of the teacher as simply a guide..someone to guide you in the dharma but 
not someone to cling to.  The teacher is simply there to help you in your 
journey, to make sure you are sitting as strongly as possible.  
As to mind...I think mind is mind..logical or empty.  It is just mind.  One day 
it may be logical the next empty.  When I sit during sesshin it changes from 
period to period.  I too struggle with mind that chatters, but know that it is 
just mind.  Eventually it settles down for a while.  Don't worry about it.  
Just sit.
I see you have a wisc.edu email address.  Are you in Madison?  The sangha I  
belong to owns a retreat center in Monroe about 2 hours away from Madison.  
Eventually our Roshi will be offering sittings and classes there.  When she 
does would you be interested?  I can let you know.
 
In gassho,
 
Jishin  

ryhorikawa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
--- In [email protected], "Bill Smart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Zazen in an answer to that.  I had the same problem.  My professional 
> works requires a lot of logic and constant thinking.  Zazen helps me 
> put that in its proper place.  When I need my logic tools I can pull 
> them out; but I can also put them back in my toolbag when I'm 
> through.  I've worked with koans in the past but now just sit 'shikan 
> taza' (empty mind).  Both are equally effective.  It helps A LOT!!!
> 
> Find a teacher.  Mayber he/she will assign you the koan Mu, maybe 
> not.  It doesn't matter.  He/she will instruct you in zazen and that 
> will help you quiet your mind.
> 
> Gassho...Bill!


Bill - As usual, thanks for your really thoughtful posts. You sent thanks out 
to 
ths listserv earlier but it should be returned to you as well. You certainly 
serve 
a bodhisattva role in this arena :-)!

Shikan-taza?! So you're a Soto-Zen dude, huh? :-)

Empty mind (mu-shin) - There we go with that naughty "mu" character again 
lol...

Is a logical mind  the realm of the "profane"?/ of phenomenal existence? Is the 
 
empty mind the realm of the "sacred"?/ of emptiness? Is the logical mind in 
"opposition" to empty mind?  Is an "emptied" logical mind an "empty mind"? Is 
it possible to have a logical mind that is empty (but still logical)? What does 
it 
mean to quiet the mind?  Can one have a quiet logical mind?

The notion of a human teacher in Buddhism is problematic, isn't it? Two 
passages come to mind for me. The first is from the last sermon of the Buddha 
from the Theravada tradition:

"Then the Bhagavan addressed the venerable Ananda: 'It may be, Ananda< 
that some of you may thing, The word of the Teacher is a thing of the past; we 
now have no Teacher. But that, Ananda, is not the correct view. The Dharma 
and the Vinaya which I have taught and enjoined upon you is your teacher 
when I am gone."

The second is from a Mahayana sutra:

"Rely on the teaching (dharma), not the teacher.
Rely on the meaning (of the teaching) and not the letter
Rely on the definitive meaning (based on personal experience) and not the  
interpreted meaning (based on someone's explanation)..."

Many of us have heard this saying from India: "When the student is ready the 
teacher appears. The student does not find the teacher. The teacher finds the 
student."

In India there is also this saying: "What appears to be coming at you, is 
really 
coming from you."

Isn't the "mind", then, the teacher?

What is the function of an external teacher in Zen?

I don't know, that's why I'm asking... I can certainly throw out answers I 
think 
are "correct" but in all honesty they'll be parroted  answer from the many 
books I've read and not anything based on personal experience.:-)

Strugggling in the dharma,
ryhorikawa







Current Book Discussion: Appreciate Your Life by Taizan Maezumi Roshi 



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