I think this conversation is trending in the wrong direction.

Zope 3 needs to make it possible to build YABB, interfaces which support 
all browsers while still looking slick, etc.

However, it is important to note: Zope 3 is *not* a product.  It is used 
to build products.  The core ZMI is needed to the extent that it helps 
build or administer products.  Thus, Zope 3 is not like YABB.

Of course, Zope 3 can ship with one or more sexy sample applications, 
like YABB.  But if we blur the line for Zope 3's ZMI, we'll be right 
back into the core problem of Zope 2's ZMI: audience confusion.

One of the first questions to ask when building an interface is "What is 
the audience?"  Giving a very focused, tough response can greatly boost 
effectiveness.

With all this in mind, I think we can require developers to use 
standards-compliant browsers, and allow/facilitate them to build 
backwards-compatible interfaces.

--Paul

William Trenker wrote:
> At 12:47 AM 4/5/02 -0500, you wrote:
> 
>> I've spent more time making the Python docs work in NS4 than making 
>> them look good in more modern browsers
> 
> 
> This is sad but true.  I still have Netscape 4 here for testing as 
> well.  (I run into the same problem with other web technologies, like 
> Macromedia Flash.  Yes, probably 97% of browsers do have a Flash player 
> installed, but what version?  Many are still at Version 3.)  Those 
> "Download FREE upgrade" buttons may as well be invisible.
> 
> I don't think we should let Zope3 look ugly on old browsers, but isn't 
> it acceptable for it to look more modest?  With careful use of CSS, it 
> is possible to let the older browsers "fail gracefully".
> 
> And it is amazing what can be done with very little CSS and lots of 
> images.  The page at, http://www.yabb.info/community/, has 2 styles, no 
> Javascript, and looks very respectable.  But look at all the GIF's.
> 
> If the web-centric, software-tools development community feels strongly 
> about perpetuating old browsers (and old web standards) then isn't it 
> about time for that community to provide tools to hide the details?  
> When will Python, and for sure Zope, have built-in browser detection and 
> formatting support driven by some sort of meta format that let's us 
> application developers get on with developing applications?



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